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View Poll Results: Average number of hands -vs- Random Opponent
101-150 0 0%
151-200 0 0%
200+ 4 11.76%
50-75 9 26.47%
76-100 5 14.71%
<50 16 47.06%
Voters: 34. You may not vote on this poll

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  #121  
Old 11-29-2005, 05:57 AM
wacki wacki is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

I can't believe it's 70/30. WTF.

Well I guess all my jewish friends are racist jew hating scumbags.

Lame.
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  #122  
Old 11-29-2005, 10:07 AM
Rushmore Rushmore is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
When issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic are raised, the minority in question cannot be the determining body, for obvious reasons.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were we talking about issues of sovereignty, reparations, tax exemption, and demographic (whatever you mean by that)? If so, I missed it. I was talking about genetics in response to Warik. Ashkenazic Jews form a distinct gene pool for reasons which I mentioned, and Sephardic Jews form a separate but related gene pool. Yes, there are 'Jewish' genes (like the dreaded Tay-Sachs gene), but there are no Christian or Muslim genes. This is a scientific fact--it is not a matter of a minority self-defining or self-identifying. I looked up the prevalence of Tay-Sachs, and the numbers I found were 1 in 25/30 Ashkenazic Jews is a carrier as opposed to 1 in 280 for Sephardic Jews and non-Jews (the incidence is considerably higher in French Canadians and Cajuns). There are a number of other nasty genetic disorders that occur primarily in Ashkenaizc Jews, and one, familial dysautonomia, that occurs ONLY in Ashkenazic Jews. This is science, not self-definition, or reparations or tax exemptions or whatever. So, there are "Jewish genes"--or at least one might put it that way. There are, of course, no Christian or Muslim genes in any sense. The reason that there are 'Jewish genes' is that the vast majority of Jews are born of Jewish mothers, and with a long history of endogamy, Jews have come to form a separate breeding population with outside genetic material introduced only relatively rarely, at least only rarely until the last couple of generations.

[/ QUOTE ]

By "demographic," I meant to say in instances where it is in the interest of the group to identify itself with the group (i.e. Affirmative Action, claims to Zion, etc.).

As for the rest, I understand that the points that you make are valid--don't get me wrong.

It's just that when I see folks saying that some arbitrary distinction (i.e. conversion, etc.), I want to at least try to rebut it, because it's inane.
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  #123  
Old 11-29-2005, 02:14 PM
LittleOldLady LittleOldLady is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

[ QUOTE ]



By "demographic," I meant to say in instances where it is in the interest of the group to identify itself with the group (i.e. Affirmative Action, claims to Zion, etc.).

As for the rest, I understand that the points that you make are valid--don't get me wrong.

It's just that when I see folks saying that some arbitrary distinction (i.e. conversion, etc.), I want to at least try to rebut it, because it's inane.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this so hard? There are no affirmative action benefits to being a Jew, and there never have been. Quite the contrary. If you are talking about German reparations, those are claims for stolen property and wrongful death made by those whose property was stolen and the immediate heirs of the dead and despoiled, no different from the return of stolen property and wrongful death suits here in the United States. If you mean the foundation of the State of Israel and the right of return that all Jews have to Israeli citizenship, well, Israel is a sovereign nation formed, like many others, in the post-colonial period and as a sovereign nation has the right to grant citizenship according to its own rules. The US, for example, decides who can enter the country legally, reside and work here, and eventually gain citizenship. Conversion to Judaism is (a) no different than conversion to any other religion (the Catholics decide who gets to be Catholic by what process) and (b) analogous to naturalization, and again sovereign nations decide whom to naturalize and by what process. Nor is Israel unique in its foundation along religious lines during the post-WWII dismantling of empires. (See Pakistan and India, both of which are sovereign nations divided along religious lines which control their own borders and citizenship--and which are as much at each other's throats with the possibility of nuclear war as Israel and her Arab neighbors. Ditto the foundation of the Republic of Ireland and its relationship with Northern Ireland.)

Perhaps it is helpful to consider Jews as a tribe. As members of a tribe, Jews have shared DNA, culture (including language), history, and religion. I have a colleague who is one of the outstanding literary figures of Africa, perhaps the outstanding living African poet. He is Yoruba. He speaks Yoruba. He is related by blood to the other members of the Yoruba people. He participates in Yoruba culture and has been formed by Yoruba history. His very surname is derived from the name of one of the Yoruba gods, the water deity. His mother told him that his fate would be bound up with water--and recently he swam for his life through roof-high waters, losing the texts of 300 poems, representing a significant portion of his life's work. In addition to being Yoruba, he is a citizen of Nigeria, a native speaker of English, a legal resident of the US, and (I think) a practicing Christian. His situation is very similar to the situation of being a Jew. And it is up to the Yoruba to decide who is and isn't a member of the tribe.

There is never any benefit to be derived by identifying as a Jew. Being a Jew is a burden, and all too often a life-threatening burden. That is why Jews do not seek converts. There is no spiritual benefit to being a Jew: at the very least the Jew is burdened by adherence to the Law which others are not. This is why the rabbi is required to discourage a potential convert three times (Are you really sure you want to do this?) before proceeding through the conversion process. Despite the fact that being a Jew is all burden and no benefit, occasionally someone wishes to become Jewish, and that is provided for according to Jewish law and custom.

So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?

What I am seeing in this thread is the acceptance of an anti-Semitic stereotype that is so ingrained that people use it casually without even acknowledging or understanding that it is a stereotype. Reminds me of my mother-in-law who didn't much like African-Americans (true of many of her generation-she would have turned 100 this year). In her final year of employment--she was well into her 70s when she retired--she got herself into a brou-haha when she called a young African-American male co-worker a "boy." She had no clue that this was offensive, and she didn't understand why it was offensive even when it was explained to her. Her view of the "lesser" stature of African-Americans was so much second nature that she couldn't see it even though it was pointed out to her.
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  #124  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:20 PM
Lottery Larry Lottery Larry is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

How did 31% not see this as racist? Regardless of the fact that it is out of direct religious/ethnic context, it's still pretty obvious.
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  #125  
Old 11-29-2005, 03:42 PM
andyfox andyfox is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

I've never heard a Jew use the phrase. We're all offended by it because it's offensive.

Maybe it's a generational thing?
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  #126  
Old 11-29-2005, 04:18 PM
LittleOldLady LittleOldLady is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
I've never heard a Jew use the phrase. We're all offended by it because it's offensive.

Maybe it's a generational thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Andy--

Do you mean that maybe young Jews think it's OK (I think it's unlikely), or that young non-Jews think it's OK, because it's just a phrase and they don't intend to be offensive--the same excuse I have heard from the young for their casual use of words like "retarded" and "gay"--as in "That's so retarded" or "He's so gay" (applied universally without regard to actual intellectual capability or sexual orientation). (I should add that I have heard from the not-so-young words like the n-word and other direct slurs without any defense or apology.)

I got into this issue on another forum where the question arose as to those Christians who are opposed to Wal-Mart cashiers saying happy holidays (rather than Merry Christmas) as a matter of company policy. The prevailing opinion was that all those who do not celebrate Christmas (Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, wiccans and other pagans, atheists, agnostics, and Scrooges) should just suck it up because no offense is intended and that 'happy holidays' is just too watered-down (and, heaven forfend, inclusive). I don't understand this point of view for a number of reasons. First of all, I don't want any insincere company-ordered wishes for a nice day or happy holidays or any such, except thanks for my custom (which had better be sincere because the cashier's job depends on custom). Second of all, things are offensive if someone is offended, the offender's intent being immaterial (Peter Abelard and his theology of intent have a lot to answer for). Third of all, stores start seasonal marketing right after Halloween, and in fact 'happy holidays' refers to Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year's (multiple holidays even for the most Christian of Christians), not to mention other winter solstice holidays (Hanukah, Kwanzaa, and whatever else other groups celebrate). So, what's the big deal about referring to the multiplicity of holidays celebrated by almost everyone in one way or another at this time of year? Anyway I had had enough when one woman told me that if I didn't want to be wished Merry Christmas, I should wear dreidel earrings. This woman was completely oblivious to the millennium-long custom of forcing Jews to identify themselves by means of some distinctive clothing item and had no clue how offensive that earring remark was even after I explained it to her. Nonetheless, I did buy myself a pair of dreidel earrings, and they are adorable.

The point is that an offensive remark is an offensive remark if someone is offended by it without regard as to whether offense was intended. The correct response is to apologize, say that one did not realize it was offensive and did not mean to offend, and refrain from making that same remark in future.
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  #127  
Old 11-29-2005, 05:20 PM
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

Im sorry, but the statement that racism is gone is completely false. I do however think there is some weird quasi-anti-racist movement, such as the favt Im not allowed to call my black friends that I've known for 20 years black, I have to call them african-american.

You know who pushes that? Rich Americans who have maybe met one black guy in their life, or those idiotic super rich black folk who try to make every single issue racist.

Look, in my mind, the term black is similar to the term tan. It is a descriptor. He is a black colored person, I am a tan colored person, he has black hair, I have brown hair, just get the [censored] over it.

Now the racism in America is all based on the crime stereotype. Ask your parent for instance why you shouldn't move to the bronx, or the 3rd ward in houston, and there's a chance they'll make some face, and quietly say something along the lines of "its a dark neighborhood" or, "there's mixed ethnicities there". Its amazing how comfortable people get with statements like that when there is no one around of the ethnicities they are referring to.

No I dont say nigga, nigger, blackie, tarbaby, or any of those. Why? Not because Im PC, but just because I dont think using that word makes me any cooler, and if it also could offend anyone, why use it? Its called maturity, its why I try not to cuss around a priest.

BTW, this is also why people finally realized that Chris Rock wasnt all that funny, after they got over the shock of him saying nigga all the time.
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  #128  
Old 11-29-2005, 05:57 PM
Rushmore Rushmore is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

[ QUOTE ]
So, do you think that naturalization as an American citizen or conversion to Catholicism or being a Yoruba is inane? If not, why apply the term to Jews?


[/ QUOTE ]

This is where I see that you are not even remotely objective on this topic.

Conversion to a religion and specification of race are utterly and absolutely different things which require no further conversation.

You seem to have done an awful lot of research on this topic, and seem to feel very strongly about your knowledge on the subject.

I hope that your inference that my "inability to undersatand" your points is "anti-semitic" is merely a product of your truly sincere beliefs on this topic.

Otherwise, I can only assume that your clearly disingenuous incredulity at my point that converting to a religion and specifying oneself as belonging to a race are utterly different things is the product of some form of insanity.

And I do not wish insanity upon anyone, even those with whom I disagree.
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  #129  
Old 11-29-2005, 08:27 PM
InchoateHand InchoateHand is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

Rushmore, what part of social constructionism don't you get?

Races are materially "real," how can they be anything more (or less) than a reflection of socially sanctioned knowledges? Including, god-forbid, self-identification or conversion?

The fact that you think Warik is "on point," shows how utterly clueless you are on this subject. That doesn't make you unique, but it does make you a moron.
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  #130  
Old 11-29-2005, 08:38 PM
RiverTheNuts RiverTheNuts is offline
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Default Re: Racist or not?...you make the call.

Off topic... but I was pissed because my dad played the verb jew last time we played scrabble... I told him it is vulgar and politically incorrect, not to mention a proper noun.

He pulled out his 1970's era [censored] scrabble dictionary and sho' nuff its in there... of course its not currently accepted, but seeing as that dictionary is god when it comes to scrabble, I had to abide
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