what odds do I need to call raises with Ax suited

[joop]

Quick question that has been at the back of my mind for a while now. Usually I just wing it, but maybe somebody could give me a definite answer.

Say I'm on the button in a full ring limit game and UTG raises, how many people need to call his raise before I can also call with, say Ax suited, or suited connectors, say 56s? Assume the blinds are very passive and rarely 3bet preflop.

Also, what about in the small blind, assuming I have the same two types of hands, how many callers do I need before I can jump in too?

And in the BB, how many callers before I can call with some randomly suited hand like 93?

Would be much appreciative of an answer on this, as I'm sure my "3 people have called, I'm in" method isn't very accurate.

Cheers.

joop

[memphis57]

Generally you don't wan to be in the pot with Axs or suited connectors against a raiser. Generally a raise means a very good hand, better than you can hope to beat consistently. However, in an extrememly loose game, or as a one time change-of-pace, I'll occasionally play ace-rag against raisers.

[snowgurts]

Like was said before, much of the decision depends on the table type. However, in last position, a drawing hand like Ax suited goes up in value. But, you're probably assuming that the x alone won't win a pot, and the Ace could get you into a tricky situation. You make a flush by the river at a ratio of 15:1, so it would take many callers to induce you into calling. You do, however, make a 4-flush about 10% of the time, and considering your position, might want to consider that more closely than the 15:1 (6%) of the whole "making it by the river" thing.

[Wacken]

Pairing the Ace might very well have to be folded in a big pot with many callers and thus will be of low or no value.

You got the following chances on the flop:
-flush draw (10.9%)
-flush (0.84%)
-2 pairs (2.02%)
-trips (1.44%)

These should have some positive EV i guess. Now if you can give them a more precise EV value, you can calculate more precisely when to call this raise, but even on a non loose table, with many callers i think it is correct to call this raise. I would probably call with 5 or more callers before me.

PS: I am a newbie, so i might very well be completely wrong [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Niediam]

This is covered in Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky, and Malmuth. It's a must have book for limit players.

[theredpill9]

I wrote a program that basically simulates playing Axs in a NL game .10/.25 game or whatever your blinds are. It similates limping in and then you give it some numbers and it tells you whether the play is +EV. It basically tells you whether a raise (a move) is profitable in the long run. If you are interested, let me know. It's free. It's a console program. It takes as much into consideration as possible, it simulates you flopping two pair, trips, everything basically and it assumes that you will be making the move when you flop a draw like OESD or a Flush draw.

[NMcNasty]

Calling on the button with Axs against a raiser and 3 callers isn't very far off. I would usually want one caller more, but I can't say that your method is wrong. Be more inclined to call with high or middle suited connectors. Smaller connectors like 54s and suited gappers are about equal to Axs in this situation. The aggressiveness of the blinds doesn't have anything to do with whether you should play your hand or not. If a player in the blinds raises, he's just sweetening the pot for you, but you don't want to raise yourself because you want the blinds in with bad offsuit hands, which gives you better implied odds. When you are in the small blind with the hands you mentioned you can follow the same requirements as if you were at the button. Your quarter bet that is paid for makes up for your bad position. In the big blind with suited trash you need maybe one or two more callers to play the hand. As always, be more inclined to play the hand if seeing 3 callers or so to a raise is routine than if it was a rare occurance. When you call with Axs you are still counting on that chance that a pair of aces will win or split the pot, so there has to be a reasonable chance that you aren't dominated. If you think this is impossible, just fold. Flush, two pair, and trip value alone isn't enough to play the hand.