T4o with a free flop

stoxtrader · #1 09-17-2004, 10:52 AM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 calls, SB raises, Hero calls, MP2 folds.

River: (10 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB
Main Pot: 12 BB, between SB and Hero.

nothumb · #2 09-17-2004, 11:34 AM

Here's a question for you: supposing the SB check-raising the turn means he really does have the case four, is he the type whose completing hands with a four here are connectors or Ax, or could he be out with, say J4 or Q4? How much do you think this should affect your action? That part is the academic curiousity; I'm not sure myself.

I think I would three-bet the turn. There is a good chance that the small blind either has a worse four, or he waited for the turn to check-raise a strong nine when the low card came, or he's just getting out of line.

Against certain players I like your line, but my suspicion is you leave a lot of bets on the table against many others. Did you have a specific read that made you do this? Another thing I would worry about is if your opponents are observant you might get a lot of shots taken at you when this guy shows you K9o at showdown.

Just my thoughts, since nobody else was biting.

NT

CanKid · #3 09-17-2004, 11:42 AM

I'd 3 bet the turn. He did complete his SB so unless he's A4, I think you've got another 4 outkicked. Would this player limp with 99 in SB? Would he call the flop with 22? If he leads on river after calling a 3 bet I'd call, but assume I'm beat by a flush which he semi bluffed on the turn with, if he 4 bets turn I'd still call him down.

I think this is a neat hand, but without any information on the SB, this is all I can think of.

stoxtrader · #4 09-17-2004, 11:45 AM

I think that is pretty correct to complete with any two cards in this structure with 6 players in and no raise, so I can't really rule out any 4x hand.

Sb's action confused me a bit because both of his possible holdings - 4x and a flush draw should have c/r the flop because he could trap multiple people. When he c/r the field on the turn you ahve to put him on a strong hand and I put him on a 4, jsut didnt know who was better.

At that point it's pretty close to even money (that was my thought at the time) that he has a better 4 or a full house, but if he is better, I lose more by raising than I think i give up by calling turn and river. I'm still not sure though because I didnt have a read on this player, and some would play a 9 this way I guess.

Did I play this hand scared? maybe it is close....

stoxtrader · #5 09-17-2004, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He did complete his SB so unless he's A4

[/ QUOTE ]

what about K4, Q4, J4, 94, 24?

CanKid · #6 09-17-2004, 11:53 AM

Since you gave no description of SB, I just pegged him as an average player, who wouldn't complete with J4, Q4, K4 or 94.

*Edit: noticed it was the 15/30 party [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

nothumb · #7 09-17-2004, 11:58 AM

I forgot that 15/30 is a 10/15 blind structure. That definitely changes things from the POV of that 'academic' question.

As I said, I think this is very player dependent, and you probably have a better handle on the 'average' 15/30 player at Party than I do (I watch this game but don't play in it yet). What it boils down to is, to balance out the essentially even money that his four is better than your four (and I like your reasoning there) how often is he getting aggressive with a worse hand, trying to take the pot with a 9 or knock out overcards, or just getting out of line? On the one hand, your observation that his play stinks of strength has merit, but is he likely good enough to make a play that wants to appear strong, based on his read or strategy, trying to push a thinking player around?

EDIT: If he's purely out of line, you probably want to flat call anyway, since he might fold without paying off an additional bet but is capable of bluffing the river if you don't push back.

I think just calling that river if he leads it is right no matter what happens on the turn.

NT

stoxtrader · #8 09-17-2004, 12:17 PM

I double checked my PT history with the guy - first session but at first glance possibly solid - 45 hands, VPIP 20. so I had to approach the hand without any read either.

results to come soon - thanks for the responses NT and ck.

Senor Choppy · #9 09-17-2004, 12:49 PM

Until people stop paying off turn check-raises from the blinds in situations like these, I hate the flop bet.

3-bet the turn. He's assuming you don't have a 4 and there's only 1 left in the deck, so there's a reasonable chance your kicker isn't even an issue. And considering most people play any 2 in the sb, there's no reason to expect A4 more often then 84. In fact, all the 4s you're beating (43, 45, 46, 47, 48...20 combinations) are probably played more often than the ones you're behind (42, 49, 4J, 4Q, 4K, 4A...22 combinations), so you're probably even money here even if you're certain he has the other 4.

stoxtrader · #10 09-17-2004, 12:55 PM

tx choppy - I was glad to hear what you have to say.

[ QUOTE ]
Until people stop paying off turn check-raises from the blinds in situations like these, I hate the flop bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

by doing this I'm forfeiting the chance to get 3 bets in on the flop correct? doesn't the 2 flush change things a bit?