NL Cash Games

[nmt09]

Hi Guys,
I want to know what resources I should be using for NL cash games? I have HOH I & II but I'm such a noob I don't know if I should be using any of these if I want the bulk of my play to be cash games. All other books I've found for cash are Limit and I don't want to play that.

I basically want to play NL cash 90% of the time and tournaments the other 10%.


So far I'm playing very few hands and I don't know if I should loosen up at the cash tables?

I am a noob too and my opinion is that you are insane if you want to jump into NL cash games.

Tournaments are one thing - they are generally small risk with a large potential reward, and if you get a decent run of cards, that can often be all you really need to finish in the money.

NL cash games require you to buy in for a larger amount of money and what you win is what you win.

The real problem is that you are MUCH more likely to run into better players at a NL table - especially as compared to a tournament - where players will likely run the gamut from very good to very very bad.

IMHO, the absolute best way to improve at first is at limit games - there you can learn how to read the strength of your hand against others and when to bet, call or fold.

Only then, once you have the basic principles down, can you expect to be truly proficient at NL.

Learn to crawl before you try to fly.

[SheridanCat]

I tend to agree that limit is a better place for a beginner, but if you really want to play NL then stick to the very small buy-in games.

I really wouldn't jump right into HOH1 & HOH2 - especially for cash games. Those books are very tournament specific.

For starters, pick up Ed Miller's Getting Started In Hold'em and follow the NL advice there. Play ABC poker as instructed and see if you can get a feel for the game. The word is that Miller & Sklansky are coming out with a NL book, so that will probably be fundamental reading as well.

Additionally, read Bob Ciaffone & Stewart Ruben's Pot Limit and No Limit Poker. This is, at present, the definitive book on big bet poker. It's not easy going, but the sections you need to concentrate on are relatively small.

Good luck,

T

[nmt09]

The advice I've gotten so far seems to suggest that Limit and NL are two completely different animals and as such I didn't want to become proficient in one just to swap later to my preferred game.

I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.

From what I've seen I can buyin to fairly small NL cash games for as little as most small tournament buyins.

I certainly appreciate your feedback but I honestly couldn't sit at a limit table for long, it's like watching paint dry.

[ QUOTE ]


I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.

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Even as a noob, this is all I really need to read to know that your head is in entirely the wrong place. I will leave it to my betters to explain exactly why.

Good luck.

You are going to need it.

[Student]

I disagree with the advise you must do limit hold'em before you attempt NL. Unfortunately the 2 games are very different, so much so as to constitute a serious threat to your ultimate goal: mastery of NL HE. Just as one can learn very bad habits when one plays against VERY experienced ingrained unprofitable players, one can also learn bad habits playing LHE, rather than NL. Often strategy between the 2 is directly opposed.

Personally I've stuck to NL, but my solution is to play even another form of the game, namely micro-limit games. Once you start hunting around you'll find NL HE ring games for even less than 5/10 cents blinds! I play 1/2 cents, and my 5,000 hands (so far) have cost a total rake of about $12.00. With this mentality, one can go out and find really cheap SNGs too, with the cheapest I'd found being the Golden Palace 10 cents one-table NL HE tournaments! Imagine playing for an hour for 10 cents, plus the 1 cent entry fee! I also disagree with those who say one can only learn effectively at games with stakes high enough to make you sweat. I'm having fun playing poker, and I don't sweat while doing it. Learn as cheaply as you can, is my motto, and spend the money you've saved buying books about poker.

Dave

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree with the advise you must do limit hold'em before you attempt NL. Unfortunately the 2 games are very different, so much so as to constitute a serious threat to your ultimate goal: mastery of NL HE. Just as one can learn very bad habits when one plays against VERY experienced ingrained unprofitable players, one can also learn bad habits playing LHE, rather than NL. Often strategy between the 2 is directly opposed.

Personally I've stuck to NL, but my solution is to play even another form of the game, namely micro-limit games. Once you start hunting around you'll find NL HE ring games for even less than 5/10 cents blinds! I play 1/2 cents, and my 5,000 hands (so far) have cost a total rake of about $12.00. With this mentality, one can go out and find really cheap SNGs too, with the cheapest I'd found being the Golden Palace 10 cents one-table NL HE tournaments! Imagine playing for an hour for 10 cents, plus the 1 cent entry fee! I also disagree with those who say one can only learn effectively at games with stakes high enough to make you sweat. I'm having fun playing poker, and I don't sweat while doing it. Learn as cheaply as you can, is my motto, and spend the money you've saved buying books about poker.

Dave

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This is good advice. If one wanted to start off mastering NLHE, then this is how to do it.

However, I still fundamentally disagree with the proposition that NL and limit are so different that learning one does not help learning the other.

Do the one card draw odds of hitting a flush change in NL?

If you are 5-1 to hit your draw and the pot is offering you 4-1 odds, is it correct to call in NL?

What I will say is that NLHE is definitely a different game - but it is different in that there is an ADDITIONAL component to the game.

As such, once you feel comfortable at limit, you can then make the adjustments neccessary to move to NL.

An analogy is driving - if you learn to drive stick from the start, you will have to deal learning how to manage the car, how to watch traffic, how to check your blind spot, AND learn how to change gears. If you have already learned how to drive automatic, then everything other than changing gears is already known to you, so you only need to focus on picking up the gear shifting.

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]
The advice I've gotten so far seems to suggest that Limit and NL are two completely different animals and as such I didn't want to become proficient in one just to swap later to my preferred game.


[/ QUOTE ]

You really should try to become proficient at both, over time. Just as you should also try to become proficient at Omaha/8 and stud, maybe 2-7 triple draw, etc. The reason is that you never know where the good games will be, so you should be ready to jump into any situation.

Interestingly, when I started playing poker in 2000, there were not many NL ring games being spread in casinos. It just wasn't available. Only in the last couple years have they really taken off. What will the poker landscape look like in three years? Who knows, so be ready.

[ QUOTE ]

I've played Limit on a few occasions and it just bores me to death, at the lower limits I'm unable to get anyone out of the pot and it's basically a game of luck based on who makes the best hand. With NL I think a lot more strategy goes into the game and that interests me greatly.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hoooo, mama.

Poker is a game of mathematics; it's simple math, but it's math nonetheless. If you don't understand how odds work in a limit game, your NL strategy will be incomplete.

The beautiful thing about NL poker is that you aren't forced to live with the odds you're being offered from the pots as you are in limit poker. Rather, you are able to manipulate the pot odds to your advantage (and your opponents are able to do the same). If you don't understand how the pot odds work in limit poker, you can't understand them in NL poker either.

Now, you're probably wondering why I would jump to the conclusion that you don't understand pot odds. I make this assumption based on your characterization of limit as a game where you can't protect your hand and where luck reigns supreme. If you understood the odds a bit, you'd understand that you don't need to protect your hands usually.

Don't be fooled by piles of chips being shoved into the center, NL hold'em is not a game about bullying and bluffing. It's a game about manipulating the pot to your advantage and trapping your opponents.

Big bet poker is a subtle game. The strategy is interesting, and I encourage you to take it up. Just be careful and don't assume pushing in a stack of chips will win you a pot.

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I certainly appreciate your feedback but I honestly couldn't sit at a limit table for long, it's like watching paint dry.

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I had to smile at this because I often feel the same way about NL hold'em. To me, NL is a lot like I've heard combat described: hours of boredom punctuated by bouts of heart-pounding terror. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I hope that's somewhat helpful.

Regards,

T

[4_2_it]

[ QUOTE ]
Do the one card draw odds of hitting a flush change in NL?

If you are 5-1 to hit your draw and the pot is offering you 4-1 odds, is it correct to call in NL?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, in most cases as long as you have implied odds. In the donkfest that is $25 and $50 NL, you will get your POT sized river bet called 75% of the time. In limit, you are correct to fold because at best you will get one more BB called. In NL, you can bet up to your stack and usually get a willing donor.

Limit and NL are two different games. I am very successful at $100NL and play 1/bb when I play limit. Limit requires different skills (that I obviously have not acquired [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]) and is probably a superior game at the higher levels (this from a NL loyalist!) For instance, pot building is important, but you go about it differently in NL depending upon the situation.

I will offer this observation, in limit you play your cards and make your decisions based upon odds. You really don't have to read your opponent (for the most part). In NL, you also do this, but you throw how your opponent plays into the mix.

To the OP, read the Theory of Poker to get a strong base. The Lee Jones book is good (I use a variation of his starting hands for NL) in explaining how to play. Doyle, no limit section in Super System will lose you money in the micros because his style is to be aggressive and bully (which is IMPOSSIBLE in the Micros). I really haven't read a good NL starter book.

[ QUOTE ]
I make this assumption based on your characterization of limit as a game where you can't protect your hand and where luck reigns supreme. If you understood the odds a bit, you'd understand that you don't need to protect your hands usually.

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Can you expand on this a bit? I feel I am close to an epiphany in understanding this, but not quite [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Like the OP, I've always stayed away from Limit because I couldn't manipulate the pot odds and make it wrong for my opponent to call.

To a newbie like me, on the surface, limit seems like a game that's easy to get drawn-out on. Is limit that cut & dry, in that, if I don't have better pot-odds than odds of making my hand, I should fold?