If everyone else at the table plays perfect SSHE...

alfatcat · #1 01-10-2005, 04:43 AM

Assume you are at a full ring limit table and everyone at that table has perfectly digested and is applying the principles laid out in SSHE. (More or less mechanically playing the tight game starting hands, making correct bets, raises, and folds based on pot odds, etc.)

Should you also play strictly by SSHE? The game is still moderately loose I think--at least by higher limit standards and very aggressive.

I think I know the answer for online poker (Find a "better" table) But in a theoretical 2+2 .5/1 game (not the crazy ones I've played in at Party!), how should you alter your play in terms of starting hands and post flop strategy? Are you now in A HEFAP game?

mosquito · #2 01-10-2005, 04:55 AM

You should not play in this game, it is too
tough. There are much better games to be in.

No simple adjustment will allow you to beat
the rake.

Cerril · #3 01-10-2005, 06:53 AM

Well you're going to be looking at a table with 17-19 VP$IP, so definitely not loose by any standards. There are definitely adjustments that should be made, mostly because SSH alone doesn't teach much that has to do with maximizing gains in shorthanded pots, but it's not going to be the sort of game you'd want to play in.

Academically, the primary difference is going to be playing by HEFAP guidelines rather than SSH ones - SSH assumes a certain low quality of players and doesn't emphasize or even cover a lot of the deception plays necessary against a table full of TA-x players.

I think you would be able to beat the rake against a bunch of mechanically TA-A SSH players, just because the play is highly straightforward and to an extent predictable. There's no need to be deceptive against the average SSH opponent. It wouldn't be a pleasant experience, though, and a 'real' player who was skilled at applying SSH concepts and aware of his surroundings might not be so beatable.

Leavenfish · #4 01-10-2005, 08:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No simple adjustment will allow you to beat
the rake.

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive my ignorance here but...how do you define 'beat the rake' when it comes to online games?

I've viewed the rake as little more than the cost of doing business...a 'tax' if you will, collected only on the times you make money. By that definition, you will always 'beat the rake', right?

---Leavenfish

K C · #5 01-10-2005, 08:23 AM

I agree that the first thing you should do is leave immediately and find a better game. This will be far too tight.

Can you beat the game though, assuming that there weren't any other choices? Sure, but you'll be doing it by playing the players. You're going to have to play better hands than they do generally though so this will have you tightening up a bit more than usual.

I don't agree that deception isn't going to be important. You've got to confuse these people and it's going to be a little tougher than your average lower limit game to be sure. They'll probably be trying to read you a bit more so you've got to make sure you're not telegraphing your moves too much.

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

ACW · #6 01-10-2005, 08:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Forgive my ignorance here but...how do you define 'beat the rake' when it comes to online games?

I've viewed the rake as little more than the cost of doing business...a 'tax' if you will, collected only on the times you make money. By that definition, you will always 'beat the rake', right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of it in terms of cashflow.

Every hour, a certain amount (which varies from hour to hour) leaves the table in rake. Someone has to lose that money. If everyone does equally well, everyone is down by R/N, where R is the hour's rake and N the number of players. To break even, you have to beat the other players by R/N every hour.

Rudbaeck · #7 01-10-2005, 08:38 AM

You play HEFAP against them and beat them for a decent amount. SSH has a few assumptions that makes it less than perfect when everyone at the table is actually skilled.

K C · #8 01-10-2005, 08:49 AM

That's true. These aren't going to be great players by any means, and you could take them for a "decent" amount, but it's better of course to be playing against a bunch of drunks who came over from an online casino, and whose knowledge of poker doesn't go much beyond "what beats what" [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

KC
http://kingcobrapoker.com

Rudbaeck · #9 01-10-2005, 10:35 AM

Oh yes, online I'd never sit in that game, except if it was a 2+2 social event or tourney.

Live, well, when I go to the nearest casino it's an hour drive there, and the game selection is not spectacular. A situation which I guess all non-SoCal/Vegas players can sympathize with. So it's either sit in that game and wait for a sucker, count cards at BJ or just search for navel lint...

Majoring in psychology and having done quite a bit of theater has me hoping I can beat them silly with knowledge gotten from Caro rather than Sklansky. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

mosquito · #10 01-11-2005, 02:12 AM

Trust me, there is no small limit live game
that is as tough as all players SSHE competent.

Not even close. There used to be some tough,
small games, but not in the last 5 years or
so.

Your profit in a game comes from the fish,
you get very little from the average players.
If all the players play SSHE well, then they are
above average, and your biggest advantage is
knowing how they play.

Sounds too much like a bad game to me.