PP 15/30 - set versus flush

[stigmata]

Sorry, no hand history, but all the pertinent details are below. The whole hand felt wrong -- it depended on situational, non-standard decisions on every street, but I *think* they were correct.

Great party 15/30 table (table average VPIP of 40%, half the table is made up of really weak, loose players) and get dealt red 55 UTG. I limp, and 4 others limp behind. SB completes and the BB raises. The BB is semi-loose, weak and generally straight-foward. I'm sure he won't raise here without a big hand. Everybody calls his raise.

Flop comes painted black rags: [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5

The BB bets out. I think and call, planning to raise a safe turn. A weak player (WP) calls behind, and everybody else folds.

Turn = rag [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I check and WP bets, BB check-raises, I call and WP folds. I am sure BB has the nut flush at this point, but I have to call two big bets cold with a slight overlay to fill up.

River changes nothing, the BB bets, and I fold.

I play this the same way. nh.

[Net Warrior]

Raise the Flop to charge the good draws while you're ahead, and to encourage the weak draws to fold.

[PTjvs]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise the Flop to charge the good draws while you're ahead, and to encourage the weak draws to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Assuming there is a strong [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw out, which isn't always the case, but is pretty likely with this many people seeing the flop, why in the world would you want to try to fold out weaker spade draws?

JVS

[stigmata]

Yeah not sure about the flop here. My thinking was:

1) I'm not bothered about folding weak [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draws when there is almost certainly a big flush draw anyhow (7 opponents).

2) I have a huge amount of pot equity, and hence in some ways I want to encourage people to stay in. In fact if the player had raised on my left I would have then 3 bet the whole field.

3) I can charge the flush draws more on the turn -- any decent spade is not going to fold.

Surely I make more money long term by drawing cheaply if a spade comes, or charging the other draws even more when my pot equity jumps on a safe turn?


The opposing arguments I had were:

If there are no big spades out, I want to put lots of pressure on small spades to fold. Also, with the connected low flop, one of the loose players could have a straight draw that could be pressured into folding. Finally, as the hand turned out, raising the flop may have got me to the river cheaper, where I would have folded out WP and then been able to take the free card.

Anyway, at the time I thought the first plan better.

[Net Warrior]

Just in case there wasn't a big spade out there folding any little ones would be huge. Another reason to raise is that you're 5-1 to complete your hand by the River.