Raising middle pairs

[iceman5]

There is an active 10/20NL thread where the poster raised 66 preflop. Ive seen many other posts where someone raised 44 or 88 or whatever.

Im wondering what the purpose of this is. It seems like a -EV play to me.

You may steal the blinds and maybe some limpers money, but if you get called, you have to make a continuation bet every time and obviously youre going to have multiple overcards. True, you will take the pot down on the flop alot of times, but when you dont its going to be an expensive proposition and its very rare that you will get passed the flop and still win.

For me, my biggest pots are hands where I hit a set and someone cant fold their top pair or 2 pair. If I raise 88 and the flop comes K84, most people with KQ, KJ already folded to my raise so I dont think you can win many big pots this way.

The only benefit I see to raising these pairs is to give some cover for when you raise your real hands, but isnt it a high price to pay just to get more action on your big pairs?

[edge]

If you only raise your real hands, you'll be taken apart very quickly by observant players. Small pairs are a good hand anyway, and you often don't need a set to take down the hand.

[Bosox]

Are you talking about reasonable raising (3-4x bb) or unreasonable raising (5x+ bb)?

[gomberg]

iceman, I agree with you here. I f-ing hate when I raise w/ a middle / small pair, flop a set w/ a high card out there, and get no action becuase it looks like you "hit" your AK or even if no AK, you are putting money out there, so you probably "have' AA / KK.

With all that being said, the extra folding equity you get from raising w/ these hands is good, and it provides cover for AA / KK. I still only raise pairs when the situation is right, and like to mix in limping / calling with them as part of my playbook. Just remember to balance your game in regards to preflop raising and you should do fine...

[iceman5]

Im talking about a standard 4BB raise.

66 is not a great hand when the flop comes JT8..or K97 or just about any other combination once you get called on the flop. Do you want to play a big pot with 66? You have the same odds of taking down a pot with a continuation bet with any 2 cards. Why not save your middle pairs to limp and hit a set. I would rather raise with a suited connector and play the flop strong than I would a middle pair.

I can play a big pot with a suited connector when I hit a draw because they will never see it coming when I hit the draw. I can also win the pot with a flop bet.

With a middle pair, it seems to me that its bet the flop and then check/fold the turn in way too many cases.

[MikeL05]

Sometimes I will be at a table that I'm beginning to notice is too tight, and I'll decide I need to raise the next late position hand I have. I'll raise with nearly anything, because I want to (a) disguise my big hands, and (b) see how long I can push before they push back.

In general, I like it a LOT when someone calls my preflop raise, even if I am sitting on nothing, because more often than not, they fold to my flop bet and I win more money than just the blinds. This happens a lot, and it adds up.

That said... my roommate likes to limp with anything up to TT and even JJ, because of pretty much what you said: people can't lay down their top or top two pairs. And they definitely don't see themselves being beaten by someone who doesn't even raise preflop.

I believe that my roommate's strategy is best, because we've found that much of our profit comes from the "one big hand" you have every session or two where your set is up against TPTK or top-two. It seems to outweigh all of those little pots that I pick up, and then some.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Sometimes I will be at a table that I'm beginning to notice is too tight, and I'll decide I need to raise the next late position hand I have. I'll raise with nearly anything, because I want to (a) disguise my big hands, and (b) see how long I can push before they push back.

In general, I like it a LOT when someone calls my preflop raise, even if I am sitting on nothing, because more often than not, they fold to my flop bet and I win more money than just the blinds. This happens a lot, and it adds up.

That said... my roommate likes to limp with anything up to TT and even JJ, because of pretty much what you said: people can't lay down their top or top two pairs. And they definitely don't see themselves being beaten by someone who doesn't even raise preflop.

I believe that my roommate's strategy is best, because we've found that much of our profit comes from the "one big hand" you have every session or two where your set is up against TPTK or top-two. It seems to outweigh all of those little pots that I pick up, and then some.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you can raise more often in late position on a tight table. I just dont want to do it with a small or middle pair that that could win me a big pot if I had limped and let KJ stay in the hand. Id rather raise with random cards.

[edge]

Oh, it's also funny to stack an AA that smoothcalls your raise preflop and then gets it all-in on a 8-high flop. Maybe full ring is different, but a lot of 6-max players will call a raise with KJ, so 66 on a KJ6 board is pretty cool. The majority of the time when you raise preflop, it won't reach a showdown, so your cards aren't always important, but a small pair gives you a chance to have a somewhat deceptive winning hand. What about 44 on an AQ4 flop against AQ? There are a bunch of awesome flops for raising small pairs.

[Bosox]

It depends on your table and the image you're trying to create. The limping mid-big pairs strategy i've found quite effective myself and do it more often than not but if you're at a tight table I usually find it better to just go about picking up all the easy pots I can by raising middle pairs and continuation betting the flop. It's basically just another wrinkle in your game, though, and you should throw it in every now and then. I'm not sure it's the play itself which is + or -EV but rather the variation it creates for you at a smart table.
sox

PS. I was wondering above whether you were referring to when people overraise or even re-re-raise small and mid pairs, a phenomenon which still makes me scratch my head. I usually see them go broke, though, and that's comforting.

[iceman5]

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, it's also funny to stack an AA that smoothcalls your raise preflop and then gets it all-in on a 8-high flop. Maybe full ring is different, but a lot of 6-max players will call a raise with KJ, so 66 on a KJ6 board is pretty cool. The majority of the time when you raise preflop, it won't reach a showdown, so your cards aren't always important, but a small pair gives you a chance to have a somewhat deceptive winning hand. What about 44 on an AQ4 flop against AQ? There are a bunch of awesome flops for raising small pairs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Theres a very good chance Im stacking AQ with my 44 on a AQ4 flop no matter if I raised or not.