Tough turn decision in large pot - 20/40 live

onegymrat · #1 10-16-2005, 09:54 PM

Commerce full game. They are your mix of typical Commerce players, while the game has been good, without too much crazy aggression.

One EP limper to me in MP, I raise with K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. One LP cold-caller. Button 3-bets, SB caps it at 4 bets. BB calls. EP calls. I call as do others. Six to the flop at 24 small bets.

FLOP: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

SB bets (she's all-in), BB raises, EP 3-bets. I cold-call (with a strong desire of raising the turn with a safe card). LP and button folds. BB calls. Three to the turn with one all-in. There are 17 big bets in the pot.

TURN: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

BB bets. EP raises, I fold...

andyfox · #2 10-17-2005, 01:45 PM

Sometimes you get in those wild games and you have a big overpair and it really is tough to know what to do for two cold on the turn. Sometimes I have to think about something Tommy once posted, which was basically: OK, it's 2 bets to me. What do I have? A royal flush? No. A straight flush? No. Quads? No. A full house? No. A flush? No. A straight? No. Three of a kind? No. Two pair? No.

I have ONE PAIR. Granted, nobody has any of the top hands here. But it helps me to think more rationally when I see all those chips in the pot and those pretty cards in my hand.

Oblivious · #3 10-17-2005, 01:49 PM

call down. you would rasie the turn with tptk in this pot wouldnt you?

onegymrat · #4 10-17-2005, 02:03 PM

Hi Andy,

As you can see, just trying to rationalize a call here, but probably trying to rustle up support for my fold. The lady, although she may not stand out as an outstanding player, plays a fairly staightforward game, imo. I just can't see her as having something that I'm not way behind on.

As I slowly progress to the 20 game, I've been trying to eyeball the 40/80 crowd to figure out who the great Andyfox is... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Dominic · #5 10-17-2005, 02:08 PM

I'm going to have a hard time not raising the turn here - too many bets in the pot and too likely at least one of your opponents is on a big flush draw. Naturally, if that last heart hits, I fold.

If there was no flush draw out there, I'd fold the turn in a heartbeat. The lady has QQ and someone else has JJ.

onegymrat · #6 10-17-2005, 02:09 PM

Hi Oblivious,

I was almost completely committed to showdown even before the flop, with that much money in there. However, the combination of her flop check-threebet AND the turn raise gave me the impression that she has 77 or 22. If this were correct mathematically, I don't have the odds to play on. At the same time, although I don't know her very well, I just haven't seen her as capable of making a move on two preflop raisers with AJ.

And yes, with the right conditions (this being one of them), raising with tptk would be sweet, where you could lay down a bigger hand. As I mentioned in the original post, I really thought BB would check to her and I would raise HER for a free showdown/drive out BB. But she beat me to it.

27offsooot · #7 10-17-2005, 02:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As I mentioned in the original post, I really thought BB would check to her and I would raise HER for a free showdown/drive out BB. But she beat me to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would u ever take a free showdown if EP calls ur raise and checks a blank river?

As for the fold, i think i would call b/c of what i've heard about the commerce game and most players won't fast play a set like that. But u provide no reads in the OP, so i guess it would depend a lot on feel.

pheasant tail (no 18) · #8 10-17-2005, 02:37 PM

I'm a little confused at how you came to know that this was a laydown on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
I cold-call (with a strong desire of raising the turn with a safe card).

[/ QUOTE ]
That wasn't such a bad card I don't think. Even in a "sane" commerce 20 game, I have seen people go banannas when the pot gets like this, especially w/ a 2-tone flop. Couldn't EP have Ah7h and BB show QQ? Seems like there are lots of hands that would desperately want protection.

The only hand that they could hold that you truly fear would be a set and or AA. Were you pretty sure one of these hands were out? I don't doubt that you made a good decision, but would love to know how you could come to it.

onegymrat · #9 10-17-2005, 03:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm a little confused at how you came to know that this was a laydown on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
I cold-call (with a strong desire of raising the turn with a safe card).

[/ QUOTE ]
That wasn't such a bad card I don't think. Even in a "sane" commerce 20 game, I have seen people go banannas when the pot gets like this, especially w/ a 2-tone flop. Couldn't EP have Ah7h and BB show QQ? Seems like there are lots of hands that would desperately want protection.

The only hand that they could hold that you truly fear would be a set and or AA. Were you pretty sure one of these hands were out? I don't doubt that you made a good decision, but would love to know how you could come to it.

[/ QUOTE ]I am not sure my fold was the best choice, hence, this post. The fold had nothing to do with the turn card, it had to do with EP's play up to my decision. She had limped/cold-called 3-bets preflop, check-3bet on the flop, and raised again to a turn bet, this really smelled like a set or at worst J7s two pair. When I wrote "safe" card and a free river showdown, I meant no [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or jack.

I omitted to described her originally, but she was a typical Commerce fairly loose player but with no tendencies to get tricky. Nothing really stood out or else I would have stated it.

I wasn't thinking about AA. It's one of those situations where if they had AA, so be it, nothing you can do but lose from the beginning. What I did care about was whether I deduced enough reasons to play on? Hoping that you can all shed some light on this in the future.

onegymrat · #10 10-17-2005, 06:30 PM

The more I think about this hand, I more pissed I get because I am no longer certain if I got the action correct from start to finish. I do know that I raised first preflop and it got capped back to me. It was three bets on the flop by the time it got back to me. It was definitely bet and then raised to me on the turn.

As stated, I folded the turn and the river was the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checked/called an EP bet. BB didn't show, nor did SB, but EP had 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] to take the pot with a flopped set. I am just disgusted at the way I played this hand even though I read her right for a set. I know there must of been a better way in which I would have seen my card on the river.

I'm thinking that I should have capped the betting on the flop, which may have slowed down BB, by which he would have checked the turn. EP would have bet, I would have raised, BB would have folded, EP would then 3-bet where I would make a crying call. Then the King would have shown up and I would have gone to war with her on the river.

This hand evidently put me on tilt for the rest of the night. Instead of being up a rack, I was down a rack after this wretched hand. I wish I could say that I dug myself out of this hole, but the hole ended up getting deeper. Thanks for the replies.