Playing KK on Level 1

[obex]

$50 + $5 SNG Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (10 handed)

Button (t985)
SB (t985)
BB (t1000)
UTG (t905)
UTG+1 (t1000)
UTG+2 (t1000)
MP1 (t1000)
MP2 (t985)
MP3 (t1000)
Hero (t1140)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls t15, MP1 calls t15, MP2 calls t15, MP3 folds, Hero raises to t100, Button folds, SB folds, BB raises to t400, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls t385, MP2 calls t385...

What now? I hate to be all-in at Level 1 with anything less then KK heads-up. Way to early to be risking the tourney on anything too risky, right? Here is a likely 4-way pot, including 1 reraiser. Who lays this down to live and fight another day? Who pushes? Does anyone just call?

Painful results to follow.

[Jason Strasser]

Easy push. He has AA, tip your hat. He sucks out, leave. Otherwise you have a monster stack.

[alieneyes]

Well, there is no way I'd just call. You either have to believe the BB has AA and fold or you have to push. Given that MP1 did not re-raise all in after limping initially i doubt he's trying the second hand low trick (especially since there was already a limper in front of him).

The BB has shown a lot of strength - unless he believes you were just trying to steal the pot from a couple limpers as per TPFAP, in which case he might raise with some "non-traditional" re-raising hands, ie. JJ or AK. Not playing Party that much, but thinking that there are some weakish players and players that would over play QQ and AK, and seeing that the stacks aren't super deep and given the possibility of the above TPFAP play, I'd likely push but it would be close (the probable extra equity from MP1 helps, the early stage of the tournament does not).

[allenciox]

Actually, I do just call. If a flop comes with an Ace on it, you can pretty well know you are beat with this crowd, and you save over half your chips. If you don't get an ace on the flop, you push then.

By raising all-in, just about everybody already betting stays in, and then you will get beat whenever an ace comes on the flop.

[mackthefork]

I had a similar experience in a Stars 18 seater sng, blinds are 15/30 Mack raises 150 from MP with KK all fold to BB who goes all in, Mack folds after much musing. It should be noted we were the joint chip leaders at the time on about 3000 each. He showed JJ, turned out to be a nutter.

Regards ML

[Mackas]

The way I look at it is this is Party and you have KK, you can't fold, its just too strong and if someone has AA well fair play to him. So folding is out.

If you push you are extremely likely to get called in all 3 spots, If you don't push I'm sure all the money is going in on the flop anyway from all three. You are probably going to need to beat all three therefore to win the pot whetehr you push here or push or call all in on the flop. So you're push doesn't really achieve anything except commit everyone to the pot preflop 100%. I don't think you give up much equity by waiting for the flop to push the rest in. One might get away and keep 600 chips but that's no big deal. On the other hand if you see an A on the flop you can be sure as hell one of them has hit it and get away with 600 in the early stages and by no means dead.

Soooo, I would call and get it all in on the flop unless an A spikes in which case I fold and play a shorter stack for a while. This is not how I always play KK BTW but with 3 callers you can be virtually sure one has an A and the money is probably all going in anyway after the flop so you don't narrow the field by pushing preflop and should still win more or less the same if no ace spikes.

The equity you lose for example if an AK or other big Ace which misses the flop folds and you lose his extra 600 is worth offsetting against the chance that an A falls and you can get away from it. There is also the chance that an AK which misses the flop and then folds would have caught an A on turn or river in which case you gain also. This also applies to smaller pairs which miss the flop but would have tripped up later or backdoor str8s, flushes etc. At the end of the day if you lose one or two players on the flop the money you lose is offset against giving three hand five cards to catch you, in which case you are not that great a favourite to hold up.

All in all then whilst I don't think pushing here is a big mistake I think calling is preferable. You can close the betting here and wait to see if an A falls before throwing the rest in. You lose very very little by doing this, and potentially gain a lot.

I'll now sit back and wait for the tide of derision from the big push fans to smother me and send me back to real work with my tail between my legs.

GL

Mackas

[alieneyes]

[ QUOTE ]

Actually, I do just call. If a flop comes with an Ace on it, you can pretty well know you are beat with this crowd, and you save over half your chips. If you don't get an ace on the flop, you push then.

By raising all-in, just about everybody already betting stays in, and then you will get beat whenever an ace comes on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree, this way you commit 40% of your stack, only to possibly fold later on in a one table satellite when you believe you are a solid favourite pre-flop (and by not folding I'm assuming you do believe this).

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

you commit 40% of your stack

This is Party. 400 is 50% of your starting stack.

[alieneyes]

[ QUOTE ]
This is Party. 400 is 50% of your starting stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is? I thought you started with 1000 at party, atleast based on the chip counts earlier thats what it seems.

[Colby818]

[ QUOTE ]
All in all then whilst I don't think pushing here is a big mistake I think calling is preferable. You can close the betting here and wait to see if an A falls before throwing the rest in. You lose very very little by doing this, and potentially gain a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I like the theory here a lot, I just wanted to raise another point of debate. Having seen this exact situation come up a number of times, usually, one player will have something along the lines of AK, the other will likely have a pp along the lines of TT.

With that in mind, what is your strategy? I guess as you said, it doesn't matter much. Guys that are willing to call half their stack are likely going to be willing to go all in with you.

I guess this swings me back to going allin preflop. It's still unlikely that pocket pair will walk away, but it is possible. I'm far less annoyed losing to the AK who catches his A than I am betting into trips.

Just a thought.

Colby