Rant #7 - "But he had a VP$IP of 36%"

[Lori]

Hello there microplayers.

Today the rant series drops by the micro limit forum, I'm sure it could be posted in small stakes, but they're probably sick of rants by now.

There are posts all across 2+2 about autorating players in Pokertracker, categorizing them, putting them into boxes, anything to make them easier to understand.
Let me clarify right away that this is, in general, a very good thing to help save time and effort.

How many of you can actually feel what it's like to put money into 36% of pots with a 14% PFR?
Sure, he's a LAG of some kind, but where's he raising from? What's he raising with? What are these mysterious extra hands he likes to call with?
Well, when you put him in the 36-14 box, you really shouldn't put him in there until you know what it means to be a 36-14.

So, Lori, Oh nagging one..... what's the solution?

On this occasion, it's easy. Try it!

There are play money tables on most sites, and some allow you to multitable.
Set your tracking software on yourself and try to play to a certain level of VP$IP and PFR, while all the time trying to win money.
2-table for play chips for an hour or two and aim to get a 30% VPIP, then do it again, aim for 50%.
Set another one up and aim for 20% PFR.
All the time try and win while meeting those targets.

Remember the 40% VP$IP fish isn't trying to lose money, he just happens to like 40% of hands.
Have you tried playing 40% of hands to see what they are? Does he likely play K2o UTG? How about K2s? You have no idea do you? You just know he likes 89s, 22 and A2s UTG, you've never really fiddled around to see what 40% feels like.
What about 60%?
The list of questions is endless, mess around on the free tables, learn to feel what these idiots feel.

How many of you have a 'fish' list?
Good. That's a start.
Now, how many of you have done some research on these fish you follow around.
Hmmmm, not so good.

So, we have a 50% VPIP, 20% PFR fish.
Other than what that data tells us, we now need to know where that fishiness comes from.
Is he raising from the Button and CO with any two cards, or is he playing a flat 50% of hands from all positions.
Clearly there's a whole different level of fishiness between those two players in the same box.
Well? Is it in your notes? You follow this guy around, surely you clicked the part of your software that tells you what kind of 50-20 he is?

Anyway, it's only been a mini rant, but learn to feel what the numbers mean. They are not much use taken as just numbers.
Remember that people are still individual, even within their box.

Do those two things well, and you'll gain some BB with only a little effort in note taking and a few hours at play money tables.

Don't panic though. A 50-20 is always a 50-20 and you're probably always going to have an edge over him. All I'm trying to do is ask you to maximize that edge by taking a few seconds to note him EVEN THOUGH YOU THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION.

Lori

[macdaddy991]

"toggle" favorite threads collection

[Schwartzy61]

Well I think the biggest problem is people rely on big general stats that don't really get to the heart of what type of player you are against. So he plays 50% of his hands, if he folds on the flop 90% of the time he sees it his VP$IP isn't as important anymore.

This is one area where Advanced Export Notes is really well used. You can add a number of specific stats that can help you make a decision on every street. If you have enough hands on a player to make the stats reliable you can have his stats for Aggression broken down by street as oppposed to a general postflop number. Number of times he's checkraised, how often he folds to a river bet, how often he wins at showdown when he bets/raises. Even the hands he likes to raise with preflop if again the number of known hands is enough to make it reliable. All of these stats can help you make a decision much more often than VP$IP and PFR ever will. They aren't as reliable for players with few hands but if you are chasing the same fish around all the time, these stats will help you make much better decisions as much as "Being the Ball" will.

[BriPlay]

nice post..good idea.
I've done the same...but trying to be a maniac..move down to 5/10 cents..and blast away...not only fun..but informative
Brian

[KaiShin]

I rely on notes to fill in the blanks that the statistics fail to see, I like to think I'm a fairly observant player that doesn't automatically cubbyhole someone into a certain playing style because they have an icon. I love your idea of hitting the play money tables and trying to maintain a certain VPIP. I'm gonna give that a whirl [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ErrantNight]

nice post...

but knowing precisely which hands i might play to get up to 40% won't help me necessarily understand what my opponents will play when they're playin 40%... and besides, it's all about range of hands anyway...

as you mentioned... this seems a little unnecessary for players who would do better to work on improving their own game... learning to put your opponent on a range of hands is part of that, datamining to figure out what a hypothetical opponent might be doing with that extra 20% of hands he's playing is not...

but again, i appreciate your thought here

[BriPlay]

got me thinking bout this..you should be able to do this by hand w/o need to play hands and incur variation..
if fact i think holdem for advanced players demonstrates this in the section on short handed play..page 187
just work off of hand probablitiies and it should fall right out..of course it doesnt help your feel.
brian

[bottomset]

nice post

more ppl need to watch their opponents, not numbers from tiny samples