55 in BB against small stack all in and a limp reraise

[ninja please]

playing in the paradise $4000 NL multi. it's pretty early -- 3rd level, and i've built up a chip lead for my table with 5500 in chips. blinds are 25/50.

i'm dealt 55 in the BB. there are 3 limpers and then a small stack raises all in to 2x BB (105). it's folded to me, and i raise to 400 in hopes of folding out the limpers and playing HU against the all in player.

UTG limper reraises to 1200, and it's folded back to me. UTG has just sat down to replace a busted player, so i know nothing about him. he had 2200 in his stack before the raise.

what's your play here, and what do you think of my raise from the BB? should i have instead tossed it or just called the mini raise?

[ohkanada]

Muck. UTG is committed to the pot and will unlikely fold, so when if you call you need to plan on calling another 1000 on the flop. You are either a slight favorite or a big underdog.

I have no problem with your raise trying to get headsup with the limper.

Ken Poklitar

[Goodie]

Why would you want to raise to get heads up with the all in? Seems to me this is a situation where your glad to take the flop with a lot of limpers in hopes of flopping a set in a sizable pot. I'm not sure what you did after the limp-re-raise, but you definetly screwed yourself by raising to 400. If you had just called, maybe you would have flopped a set and took all of the limp re-raiser's money.

With 55, you either want to steal the blinds late in a tourney or you want to take the flop with a lot of others early in the tourney.

Don't re-raise here, just call and play set or no bet poker.

Peace

Goodie

[alieneyes]

You wouldn't be taking the flop with a lot of others though, at most you have one other person to play against. If you raise and get heads up against the all in, you've created dead money in the pot.

[Goodie]

First of all, there were three limpers and a forth that went all in for 105. Obviously, if you call, all the limpers are coming in. You don't think four others is alot? I do.

Secondly, there is no dead money if you raise and get it heads up. The entire pot will either go to you or the all in. You still have to beat the all in which is a coin flip at best. Seems to me there are a few different scenerios here.

First - You raise to 400, get it heads up, flop and five and win the money in the pot. You'll be sick that you didn't let others in.

Second - You raise to 400, get it heads up, and lose to the all in. You've risked 400 for no real reason because you were going to lose regardless.

Third - You raise to 400, get a couple of callers and have to fold on the flop when two or more over cards come OR you are filled with uncertainty as to what to do with an underpair out of position against 1 or more opponents.

Fourth - You raise to 400, get re-raised (which is what happened) and you completly and utterly waste 400 precious tournament chips on a small pair.

Fifth - You just call, flop a set and win a monster pot. Clearly the best result.

Sixth - You just call and lose to one of the limpers or the all in without investing any more than 105 measly tournament chips.

Of course there are some scenerios in which you flop a set and lose or don't flop a set and win, but they will be rare.

You tell me, looking at these options, which looks better, raising to 400 or calling?

Peace

Goodie

[ohkanada]

I am not saying I would raise to 400 everytime, but getting headsup with a desperate stack is very attractive even with 55. Plus his stack is above average so I think taking a slight risk of a limp-reraise is worth it. Most players who limp for 50, would muck for 400, so the point of the raise is to get headsup. If you feel someone is trapping I agree just calling is correct.

You also missed the typical scenario of raising to 400, getting headsup and winning when your opponent misses (overcards or smaller pair) and you miss as well.

I think this option or your option 2 will happen 80%+ of the time.

Ken Poklitar

[alieneyes]

I misread the item, I thought the all in person was in there with on limper. In which case I tend to agree with you that limping is more correct.

[jedi]

Add to the all-in scenario:

You raise 400, get it heads up. You don't improve but neither does the All-in AK or AQ. You take down the pot that you might not have had you allowed the limpers to stay in. Chances are they might have had JT or even 66 and caught their hand.

I didn't think there was anything wrong with trying to get the hand heads up.

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, there were three limpers and a forth that went all in for 105. Obviously, if you call, all the limpers are coming in. You don't think four others is alot? I do.

Secondly, there is no dead money if you raise and get it heads up. The entire pot will either go to you or the all in. You still have to beat the all in which is a coin flip at best. Seems to me there are a few different scenerios here.

First - You raise to 400, get it heads up, flop and five and win the money in the pot. You'll be sick that you didn't let others in.

Second - You raise to 400, get it heads up, and lose to the all in. You've risked 400 for no real reason because you were going to lose regardless.


[/ QUOTE ]

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
I am not saying I would raise to 400 everytime, but getting headsup with a desperate stack is very attractive even with 55.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure why this is true. The shortstack is obviously going to go in on a wide range of hands, but with 55 you are slightly better than a coinflip at best. Why risk 400 for a chance at a coinflip? If you had something like 88 or AJ (hands that would have a decent chance to be way ahead of the all-in raiser), this would make more sense to me.

Even if you could somehow *know* that every other player would fold, I can't imagine the +EV is very large here. Most of the hands will be coin flips (albeit with you as a slight favorite), you will occasionally be way ahead (to 22-44) and more often be way behind (to 66 and up). Once you factor in that you might get called in other places or (worse) raised, I think limping (or rather, calling the small all-in raise) makes more sense.