A weak-tight decision ?

[nummerfire]

Playing in Malmoe in an incredible juicy 15-30 (at the present exchange rate) game I get dealt JT of heart in late MP.

UTG (drunk player who raises every flop and then most often fold on the flop) raises, okay player calls, two loose passive players call, I call and the blinds (no read, but seems reasonibly tight both of them) call. If I had raised utg would have capped it. 7 players, 14 small bets.

Flop comes J of diamonds, 9 of diamonds, 3 of clubs. SB,BB and UTG checks, okay player bets, to my amazement both the next players fold, I raise, SB calls and okay player calls.

So we are three players and now there are 10 big bets in the pot.

Turn is the three of spades and now the SB bets. Okay player calls and I fold.

Comments welcome.

Kim

[PokerPrince]

First off I think this is a pretty simple muck preflop. Yes, it's a nice multiway hand, but it's costing you a full bet to play AND it's more than likely dominated by larger J's and T's. As for the flop I like the play, pretty straight forward. On the turn you're getting 12-1 on hitting a non-diamond 8 or one of the two Jacks left. That gives you five total outs and makes a call worth your while. Not a horrible fold, we all make them, just think it through a little next time.

PokerPrince

[nummerfire]

I totally disagree preflop. I am likely much better than at least three of my opponents.

I do not see how an 8 helps me at the river. Im my mind my only outs are Jacks.

Kim

[elindauer]

I assume he meant tens. I don't think you are likely to be up against a three here, even though that's what the SB is suggesting he has. The real fear is that you are up against a J with a higher kicker, which could be in either of your opponent's hands. So, tens are good if you are up against a better J, jacks are good if you are up against a three, but of course, you won't know what you're up against untill you pay your money on the river, and that's assuming you improve...

In light of this, I think it's a fine fold.

As for preflop, I think it's close. I like that you are facing loose and passive players, so you may be able to get free cards when you need them. It's just tough for me to play a hand for multiple bets PF when you can easily connect and still fold without much action, as happened here.

[PokerPrince]

Oops, my mistake about the 8 being an out. It's too early for me to be posting, lol. As far as the preflop goes, it's a pretty standard fold.

PokerPrince

[nummerfire]

I agree its a standard fold against a normal UTG raiser.

But it is not a standard situation

UTG could have 74 offsuit for all I know and two of the callers can have something like Dx an Kx

Does that not change things ?

Kim

[worm33]

Pre-flop I can not see how you can see this as a "clear fold." This pot is likely to be 7 ways for 2 bets, and you have the best multiway hand there is. In HPFAP they talk about the middle suited connectors extracting money from unsuited high cards in a pot like this. If your a decent player and can fold when it comes 2 bets back to you on a 10 high board this is clearly a positive ev call....

[RyanR]

If you can't play JTs with position against six other players against whom you have a presumable edge, where exactly can you play it? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[elysium]

hi kim
terrible fold. your call closes the action, and you at worst have a 5 outer. that combined with the liklihood of your being in the lead makes this a must call. actually kim, nothing you have said in this post so far excluds the possibility of you raising in this spot. you'd need to have a little more going for you, but yes, this could be a raise here. you can't fold these kim.

[elysium]

hi nummer
pre-flop, you should have reraised, particularly if your opponents like to check to the raiser on the expensive rounds. from that position, you JTs is the dominant powerhouse under the conditions you describe. you have the field right where you want then throughout this entire hand kim. you need to refreshen a little. read hfap and top.