Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

[SheridanCat]

Yes, that's right.

The reason is this. When you flop a four-flush (with 2 in your hand) you are about 2:1 (effective odds) to make it by the river. The pots odds are almost always going to be there to see it to the end. If you don't have the pot odds to call, you should find another game because the one you're in is way too tight.

If you only hold one of the flush suit, it should be the nut card or maybe the second nut card to continue against heavy action.

Does that make sense?

Regards,

T

Wow. I have won a few hands chasing the flush draw but had always thought that I was doing something wrong chasing them down. Going against the 'fit or fold' mentality that I was told was godd beginner play. Perhaps I'm not! (I'm so new at this game it hurts sometimes!!!).

My on

[ QUOTE ]
Wow. I have won a few hands chasing the flush draw but had always thought that I was doing something wrong chasing them down. Going against the 'fit or fold' mentality that I was told was godd beginner play. Perhaps I'm not! (I'm so new at this game it hurts sometimes!!!).

My on

[/ QUOTE ]

"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.

Flush draws are VERY strong - in large part because when you win, you will tend to win a big pot.

[SheridanCat]

Fit or fold is a safe position, but you're often giving up a lot of equity. And a four-flush on the flop - fits. Almost always.

Here's a scenario where you don't want to continue:

2/4 Limit Holdem.

You're in the small blind holding K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

The action folds around to you and you call (just for the sake of the example - you'd normally raise here) and the big blind checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (Pot: 2 SBs)

You check your nut flush draw. BB bets. It's a small bet back to you. The pot is offering you 3:1 and you're 2:1 to make your flush by the river, so you call.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (Pot: 2BBs)

You check and the BB bets. Now you're getting 3:1 from the pot but the odds are about 4:1 to make the flush on the last card. So, according to the pot odds, you should fold. This makes sense since if your spade comes on the turn the implied odds are basically gone - you won't get enough then to pay off your loose call here. So, you fold.

It should also be noted here that the call on the flop was incorrect. Since the hand is so small it might appear I'm getting 2:1 but those are my odds only if I see this hand all the way to the river. Unfortunately, as we figured out too late, if I did make my flush I wasn't going to get enough action on the river to satisfy those 2:1 odds I thought I was getting.

Parenthetically, this is why a straight draw in this situation is better. It's much less obvious when you hit and you can often count on action from a hand like top pair.

The game is going to have to be about that tight for you not to be getting proper odds to call to see the river. And I, for one, haven't been in a game that tight in ages. If I were, I'd find a new game.

Regards,

T

[SheridanCat]

[ QUOTE ]

"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.


[/ QUOTE ]

It does breed weak-tight play. This is one of my criticisims of the 2nd edition of WLLH. Jones often suggest you should be looking for reasons to fold.

I think playing fit-or-fold will allow you to, perhaps, break even. So, that's something. But it won't make you a winner.

Regards,

T

[ QUOTE ]


"Fit or fold" is TERRIBLE beginner play.

Read SSHE - then re-read it - and you will understand.



[/ QUOTE ]

I really wish I had found this site before some of the others I've read and listened to advice given on TV etc. It appears a lot of things I thought were good have been designed to reduce the potential loss of playing. I want to learn to play good poker not just learn to bleed to death more slowly! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

The exception that proves the rule - if just one more person calls preflop and calls on the flop - or if you have 2 more callers preflop - then it is a break-even proposition to call the turn bet.

[Cooker]

Just to examine the worst case scenario for chasing the flush: suppose you are in the BB and only the SB completes. There are 2 small bets in the pot. Now you flop a 4 flush and SB is a totally unimaginative player and bets into you indicating he has at least top pair and you only have undercards (i.e. only your flush outs are worth counting). Supposing he will bet again on the turn, it will cost you 3 small bets to see the river, but the pot will be effectively 5 small bets. In this case, you are getting 5 to 3 in effective odds, which is just incorrect to continue. If you figure he would call a bet on the river when you hit then you have implied odds of 7 to 3 or 2.3 to 1 which is plenty to call. So even in the worst case scenario it is still a marginal situation and probably worth calling with 4 to the flush. I am not saying this is the best way to play it (because I don't think it is), but it is at least a +EV way to play it. Therefore, you can safely plan to see the river with 4 to the flush in any limit situation except the one where you are heads up with the SB from the BB and your opponent is likely to bet the turn and unlikely to call the river when you hit. All this assumes you have a flush draw with 2 suited on the board and 2 suited in your hole cards.

[AKQJ10]

It bears repeating, although some have noted it, that everything in this thread applies to LIMIT hold 'em. In NLHE I understand it's pretty routine for good players to deny their opponents proper odds to chase a flush draw.