I get criticized for this play - you decide

binions · #1 12-06-2005, 08:41 PM

PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kh 9d (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has 7c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB. 

Villain gets mad and says to me:

"that was a horrible hand"

"i dont think it was possible to play that any more wrongly"

One of the table agrees with him . . .

*********************

I suppose I could have raised preflop, but I can't see mucking.

On the flop, I bet it in last position to see if I can take it down or build a pot with my nut flush draw + ace overcard.

When SB raises me to get heads up, I put him on top pair. I re-raise to try and get a free card thinking I may have 12 outs and close to 50% pot equity even if he caps. I certainly can't fold.

When another K hits the turn and he checks, I can't bet given my read. I take the free card.

The river played itself.

Personally, I think he played it bad after his initial flop check-raise, which I thought was good.

If I am him, I consider capping the flop, and certainly lead out on the turn. I mean, was he going for 2 check-raises in a row? If we are still playing when the 3rd club hits, I check-call the river with his hand.

Thoughts?

Dhani · #2 12-06-2005, 08:46 PM

Agreed

The Goober · #3 12-06-2005, 09:00 PM

bin,

I think PF is fine as long as you can expect at least a couple people to limp behind you and a raise isn't likely. If the tables has been playing tight and/or agressive, I think this is raise or fold and is highly situation dependant (with folding being right most of the time).

I think your flop bet is nearly mandatory, and I like the free card 3-bet. With this board, villian isn't likely to have made a hand that he likes enough to cap the flop and lead the turn. This is the type of free card play that I need to make more often.

The rest of the streets are, as you said, standard.

FWIW, I think villian played poorly. CRing that flop is a bad idea because he has no idea if anyone will bet or where it will come from, and the board is draw-heavy. He should have bet the flop, bet the turn, bet the river. Sure, he would have lost more money, but he wouldn't have let you draw so cheaply.

#4 12-06-2005, 09:01 PM

Villain is a whiner. Well played.

damaniac · #5 12-06-2005, 09:06 PM

Preflop really depends on the table, if it is playing loose I can dig the limp, but if it's tighter I'd raise (or fold if the players are fairly skilled/aggressive).

The only Q on the flop is to 3-bet or not. You've probably got 11 outs or so weighted (I think the A is good most of the time), so if he's not terribly aggressive you can get a free card often and that would be very nice, and you have a fair amount of equity anyway.

Turn is pretty standard, I don't want to get c/r'ed by a king, and if he only has a J he might do it anyway, not giving you credit for trips or whatever, so I don't think we have much fold equity.

River, standard.

[ QUOTE ]
Villain gets mad and says to me:

"that was a horrible hand"

"i dont think it was possible to play that any more wrongly"

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps he was referring to his own play.

TheHip41 · #6 12-06-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kh 9d (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has 7c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB. 

Villain gets mad and says to me:

"that was a horrible hand"

"i dont think it was possible to play that any more wrongly"

One of the table agrees with him . . .

*********************

I suppose I could have raised preflop, but I can't see mucking.

On the flop, I bet it in last position to see if I can take it down or build a pot with my nut flush draw + ace overcard.

When SB raises me to get heads up, I put him on top pair. I re-raise to try and get a free card thinking I may have 12 outs and close to 50% pot equity even if he caps. I certainly can't fold.

When another K hits the turn and he checks, I can't bet given my read. I take the free card.

The river played itself.

Personally, I think he played it bad after his initial flop check-raise, which I thought was good.

If I am him, I consider capping the flop, and certainly lead out on the turn. I mean, was he going for 2 check-raises in a row? If we are still playing when the 3rd club hits, I check-call the river with his hand.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

at party 5-10, A7s from MP1 is trash. Easy fold. See, you don't want to be raising this, because you will get 3 bet alot. Also, you don't want to limp, because you will get isolated, and check/fold the flop alot.

Post flop looks ok. I'd probably just call the c/r instead of going for a free card play, since he will probably cap/bet the turn, or call/donk the turn, more than he calls, and checks. But that's on ok move imo.

#7 12-06-2005, 10:49 PM

besides the preflop call, i think the hand played out perfectly.

to open limp with Axs in MP is kinda weak. if anyone raises behind you, you are in trouble. if no one calls behind you, its a very marginal hand at best. if you flop the flush draw and its HU, doesnt pay off very well either and sucks to miss the draw and c/f the river.

ncboiler · #8 12-06-2005, 10:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (3 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (4.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Kh 9d (three of a kind, kings).
Hero has 7c Ac (flush, ace high).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB. 

Villain gets mad and says to me:

"that was a horrible hand"

"i dont think it was possible to play that any more wrongly"

One of the table agrees with him . . .

*********************

I suppose I could have raised preflop, but I can't see mucking.

On the flop, I bet it in last position to see if I can take it down or build a pot with my nut flush draw + ace overcard.

When SB raises me to get heads up, I put him on top pair. I re-raise to try and get a free card thinking I may have 12 outs and close to 50% pot equity even if he caps. I certainly can't fold.

When another K hits the turn and he checks, I can't bet given my read. I take the free card.

The river played itself.

Personally, I think he played it bad after his initial flop check-raise, which I thought was good.

If I am him, I consider capping the flop, and certainly lead out on the turn. I mean, was he going for 2 check-raises in a row? If we are still playing when the 3rd club hits, I check-call the river with his hand.

Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Who cares what one or two people at the table say. And is wrongly even a word?

tpir90036 · #9 12-06-2005, 11:01 PM

I don't think either of you played the hand badly. You could have raised PF but whatever. And taking the free card was nice as well.

#10 12-06-2005, 11:01 PM

You played this great, just let the guy whine, he's mad because he obviously got completely outplayed.

I had a guy at my table today criticize some guy for raising AA from the BB when 6 people limped. His arguement was you are no longer favored against 6 people. His definition of favored was +50%. Even after it was explained to him that he doesnt have to win over 50% of the time since his money is only 1/7th of the pot, he still didn't agree.