President gives speech Dems spaz....

[BCPVP]

WHHHOOOOOSSHHHH

That my friends is the sound of my point rocketing over kurto's head. Let me try and make it clearer for his benefit.

Here are the Prez's references to 9-11 during his speech:

[ QUOTE ]
The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror. This war reached our shores on September 11, 2001. The terrorists who attacked us and the terrorists we face murder in the name of a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance and despises all dissent. Their aim is to remake the Middle East in their own grim image of tyranny and oppression by toppling governments, driving us out of the region and exporting terror.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are we in agreement that the goal of many if not most of the terrorists (Al Qaeda et al) are indeed trying to shape the Middle East into their vision of a brutal theocracy? No problems here.

[ QUOTE ]
To achieve these aims, they have continued to kill in Madrid, Istanbul, Jakarta, Casablanca, Riyadh, Bali and elsewhere. The terrorists believe that free societies are essentially corrupt and decadent, and with a few hard blows they can force us to retreat. They are mistaken. After September 11, I made a commitment to the American people: This nation will not wait to be attacked again. We will take the fight to the enemy. We will defend our freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, nothing said here is untrue.

[ QUOTE ]
The lesson of this experience is clear: The terrorists can kill the innocent but they cannot stop the advance of freedom. The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September 11, if we abandon the Iraqi people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like bin Laden. For the sake of our nation's security, this will not happen on my watch.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if we forget what lessons we learned on 9-11, don't the terrorists win?

[ QUOTE ]
We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve. We are fighting against men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity. They wear no uniform; they respect no laws of warfare or morality. They take innocent lives to create chaos for the cameras. They are trying to shake our will in Iraq just as they tried to shake our will on September 11, 2001. They will fail. The terrorists do not understand America. The American people do not falter under threat and we will not allow our future to be determined by car bombers and assassins.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think the terrorists aren't trying to shake our will in Iraq, then I give up on you.

[ QUOTE ]
After September 11, 2001, I told the American people that the road ahead would be difficult and that we would prevail. Well, it has been difficult. And we are prevailing. Our enemies are brutal, but they are no match for the United States of America and they are no match for the men and women of the United States military.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this is undisputable.

So maybe if you dems could get your heads out of your asses and actually read or hear the context with which the President referred to 9-11, you'll notice how much you're overreacting.

So can we dispense with the strawmans?

[shots]

[ QUOTE ]
So can we dispense with the strawmans?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure Kurto was raised on a farm as building strawmans seems to be his specialty. But hey if you can't argue with what someone said you can probably still crush an argument they never made.

[ptmusic]

[ QUOTE ]
WHHHOOOOOSSHHHH

That my friends is the sound of my point rocketing over kurto's head. Let me try and make it clearer for his benefit.

Here are the Prez's references to 9-11 during his speech:

[ QUOTE ]
The troops here and across the world are fighting a global war on terror. This war reached our shores on September 11, 2001. The terrorists who attacked us and the terrorists we face murder in the name of a totalitarian ideology that hates freedom, rejects tolerance and despises all dissent. Their aim is to remake the Middle East in their own grim image of tyranny and oppression by toppling governments, driving us out of the region and exporting terror.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are we in agreement that the goal of many if not most of the terrorists (Al Qaeda et al) are indeed trying to shape the Middle East into their vision of a brutal theocracy? No problems here.

[ QUOTE ]
To achieve these aims, they have continued to kill in Madrid, Istanbul, Jakarta, Casablanca, Riyadh, Bali and elsewhere. The terrorists believe that free societies are essentially corrupt and decadent, and with a few hard blows they can force us to retreat. They are mistaken. After September 11, I made a commitment to the American people: This nation will not wait to be attacked again. We will take the fight to the enemy. We will defend our freedom.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, nothing said here is untrue.

[ QUOTE ]
The lesson of this experience is clear: The terrorists can kill the innocent but they cannot stop the advance of freedom. The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September 11, if we abandon the Iraqi people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like bin Laden. For the sake of our nation's security, this will not happen on my watch.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, if we forget what lessons we learned on 9-11, don't the terrorists win?

[ QUOTE ]
We have more work to do, and there will be tough moments that test America's resolve. We are fighting against men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons who are capable of any atrocity. They wear no uniform; they respect no laws of warfare or morality. They take innocent lives to create chaos for the cameras. They are trying to shake our will in Iraq just as they tried to shake our will on September 11, 2001. They will fail. The terrorists do not understand America. The American people do not falter under threat and we will not allow our future to be determined by car bombers and assassins.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think the terrorists aren't trying to shake our will in Iraq, then I give up on you.

[ QUOTE ]
After September 11, 2001, I told the American people that the road ahead would be difficult and that we would prevail. Well, it has been difficult. And we are prevailing. Our enemies are brutal, but they are no match for the United States of America and they are no match for the men and women of the United States military.

[/ QUOTE ]
Again, this is undisputable.

So maybe if you dems could get your heads out of your asses and actually read or hear the context with which the President referred to 9-11, you'll notice how much you're overreacting.

So can we dispense with the strawmans?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are many, many terrorists all over the world. No one will ever be able to get rid of them all. There is not one huge common terrorist enemy group. For the most part, the various terrorist groups are UNconnected. And unconnected is exactly what Iraq and our actual attackers were.

The problem with parts of Bush's speech is not that he's lying, but that he is continuing to make a connection between the Iraq terrorists (who weren't even there before 9/11 for the most part) and the Al Queda terrorists.

"The only way our enemies can succeed is if we forget the lessons of September 11, if we abandon the Iraqi people to men like Zarqawi and if we yield the future of the Middle East to men like bin Laden."

What he should have said is: "Bin Laden made a mistake when he attacked us on 9/11, and he will pay for that mistake." Throwing in that Iraq phrase in the middle of that sentence implies that Iraq, 9/11, and Bin Laden are all intricately tied together.

"They are trying to shake our will in Iraq just as they tried to shake our will on September 11, 2001." Here Bush is blatantly using the pronoun "they" to refer to BOTH the terrorists in Iraq and the terrorists of 9/11. If they were the same people, he would have said this sentence in this exact way! He is making no effort to differentiate between the two.

There's a phrase the entertaining Sean Hannity loves to use when bashing liberals. It applies to the tactic Bush employs in the above sentences (and in the many times he and Cheney have implied the connection between Iraq and 9/11):

he's not being "intellectually honest".

-ptmusic

[trippin bily]

Pt read the resolution on the originalpost . I read it yesterday for the first time.
There are numerous mentions of al Qaida and terrorist in the resolution to go to war.
The Dems voted for it. Most of em anyway.
Despite the revisionist history Iraq was part of the war on terror from the gitgo and the Dems know it. They voted for it.
I was surprised as anyone when I read the resolution.
Very much worth reading.
Puts a serious dent in the libs argument about Iraq not having anything to do with war on terror and that there were no terrorist in Iraq until we got there.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
[Iraq] has a lot to do with 9-11. Bush and others have made the argument that those they are fighting in Iraq are the same type of people we were attacked by on 9-11. That's the connection.

[/ QUOTE ]

This would be so funny, if people were not dying from the follies of the Dubya administration!

Since there were no connections between Saddam Hussein's Iraq and (the mostly Saudi and Egyptian) perpetrators of the 9/11 attack, you are essentially arguing that your invasion in Iraq drew those "same people" (i.e. sympathizers or fellow operatives to the 9/11 attackers) inside Iraq in order to do battle against 'em!

Wow. Practically a hunter's argument: "We had to draw the ducks into our shooting range to shoot 'em!" Mind boggling.

...I mean, where does the folly end?

[Cyrus]

You start to sound like your leader.

[ QUOTE ]
"You want the man to stop referencing the most memorable and powerful event of his presidency and probably his existance."

[/ QUOTE ]

Bush referenced 9/11 repeatedly in his speech, in connection to the war in Iraq. But the two issues are related only a little more than 9/11 and intellectual property theft by China.

Are we supposed to watch the U.S. President invoking 9/11 every time he talks about China? About American farmers? About the White House dog?

If the event traumatized the man ("..most powerful in his existence"), let him step down from office and allow the VP to take over! You cannot justify Bush's repeated, facile propagandist invocations of 9/11, the event that traumatized the whole Country, by claiming that it "as powerful" and "memorable"!

The operative word here is "relevant", and not "memorable".

[[censored]]

I haven't read the thread but I'm going to take a wild guess and say that it is filled with two responses. Those who don't like the President complaining about the use of 9/11 in reference to Iraq and those who do like the President argueing that Iraq is a part of the war on terror.

The answer is this. Iraq is a part of the war on terror because The President says so. He sets the agenda and makes the foreign policy. As long as he is in office Iraq will be treated as part of the war on terror. Simply put while he is commander in chief he will decide what is and is not part of the war against terrorism.

It is futile to argue otherwise.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised as anyone when I read the resolution.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check the Bush speech transcript for another surprise. You will see that Dubya referred to the insurgents in Iraq as "terrorists" and not as insurgents.

This shows one of two things:

1. How far removed from reality the man and his administration are.

2. They are planning to hold or holding secret talks with them god darn'd terrorists already, so they are angling for position!

[Cyrus]

Trippin' Billy: "President Bush gave a great speech on Iraq and the war on terror."

Shots : "He clearly laid out a plan for Iraq without ... setting a day when the troops would leave."

BCPVP : "This was mostly a pep speech, not a ... policy announcement."

Trippin' Billy : "Granted there was not much new in his speech."

Shots : "He laid out ... a solid timetable!"

BCPVP : "Those people [we] are fighting in Iraq are the same type of people we were attacked by on 9-11."

END OF ACT I

INTERMISSION

...Get yer ice cream cones right here!

[kurto]

Whoooooosh

The issue with Iraq is- We never should have been there in the first place. It had nothing to do with 9/11. Invading Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror.

But I can see why you would think otherwise... all you have to do is ignore the writings of the people in the administration that were written before Bush ever took office explaining how they wanted to invade Iraq. You can ignore that after 9/11, they said 'we're going into Iraq whether they had anything to do with it or not.' You can ignore things like the Downing Street Memo which shows what seemed apparently all along; the intelligence was being fixed (and poorly at that.)

By simply ignoring all the evidence, you can come to the conclusion and believe Iraq is all about the war on terrorism.

Cognitive dissonance in action!