Attitudes Around Here

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Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

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There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

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I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

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A famous one, at that.

Rob

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Infamy and fame are different things, but I get your point.

[Entity]

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Great post. I found instant hostility when I started posting here, and responded with hostility. Probably shouldn't have, but what's done is done. I find most of the posts on here totally useless. Every once in a blue moon there's some really solid advice or someone you can tell is making a genuine attempt at talking legit strategy and not just stroking their own egos. But not often.

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There's a fairly good reason you're finding lots of hostility around here.

Rob

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I'm sure there is. I'm a dick.

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A famous one, at that.

Rob

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Infamy and fame are different things, but I get your point.

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I think at this point, you can qualify as both famous and infamous. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[elindauer]

Hi Barry,

For what it's worth...

I'm part of a private email discussion among players and friends from the New York area. My impression from them is that they all hate 2+2 for basically the reasons you mention.

There are great poker minds out there not participating because of all the arrogance and hate here.

-Eric

[Smoothcall]

So your saying you want your ego's stroked or you will treat new posters rudely? I'm not saying this in a mean way. But it sounds like you think this is your and your buddies personal forum. Its not. And you may learn from the new posters if you give them a chance. Again i have nothing against you and had no problems with you. But your statements above seem arrogant.

[daryn]

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Just look at the title under my handle.

It may be a joke to some, but, I think Barron is serious.

And when the moderator gives a member a title like WARNING....blahblahblah, well, it gives guys like daryn the idea it's okay to blast me, because, well, the moderator kind of condones it in some sort of way....else he wouldnt put that under my handle.

It was funny at first, but now it is getting old when people come out of the wood work to tell me they hate me



Tex

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wtf? dude, i don't even know who you are! i had no prior knowledge of you before today.. i just saw the lamest post in history about COME SWEAT ME IN MY GAME, and then nobody responds so you make the next 2 replies TO YOURSELF like, OMG I HAD KQ THAT HAND, WHAT DO U THINK LOL?!

i guarantee you i do not treat someone in a nice way just because they have been here for years, or in a bad way because they are new.

[Smoothcall]

I do applaud you for your honesty. Many wouldnt admit to tribalism. Even though it is a definate reality in forums.

[elindauer]

Hi CardSharp,

I don't know about tribalism, but I definitely feel the conflict between helping people and giving up my own edge. I can think of more than one occassion where I've held back in really arguing a point because I really don't want people to know about it.

In my case, whether or not I choose to offer free advice on any given day is correlated with my general feeling of good will toward the site. If I'm feeling like everyone is arrogant, then I keep my thoughts to myself.

Some might not care, believing I don't have anything new to contribute anyways. They may be right, but that misses the point. There are probably others out there who do have interesting things to say but who have left 2+2 probably never to return because they don't like the argumentative style. In fact, I personally know several. One guy taught showed me the subtleties of 3-betting a late position steal raise when you are light yourself. Another helped me with my live table image. A couple others have taught me key lessons about NL, a game I'm still struggling to understand. All left months or years ago because they didn't feel like putting up with the hostility. In my opinion, this is a loss to the experts on the forum, and we should strive to prevent this as much as possible.

my 2 cents.
eric

[MNpoker]

Couldn't agree more

One of my earliest posts here asked someone how they were calculating variance. NOT how do you calculate variance. Which because I was a new poster was how it was interpeted as the later by the powers that be.

That individual even felt the need to start a new thread, using my incorrectly read post as an example (with my name included), of why this forum needs a moderator.

1) Being pompous does not make one good at poker. (In fact I would argue having a big ego is a detriment)
2) Having a lot of posts here does not automatically make one good at poker.

Yet the attitude around here seems to be both those things are true.

Then they claim that it's these 'standard' posts that drive away good posters. Yeah right :we need a rolly eye graemlins:

My post:
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People bring up expected values and variance. Curious how you are calculating them.

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The reply's
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MNPoker,

Will all due respect because I am trying to be nice to a new poster, the purpose of this particular forum is not to spoon feed you the answers to these questions. We know these things from studying theory and from practical experience.

If you want to learn more about variance try the probability forum or read Gambling Theory and Other Topics by Mason Malmuth. For Expected Value see the Theory of Poker by Sklansky or Small Stakes Holdem by Ed Miller.

If you have already read these, then I apologize and suggest that you review them.

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are we the only forum w/o a mod?

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......... I could do w/o the MNpoker type posts (have them simply moved to correct forums would be nice) (and sorry to pick on MNpoker in particular but questions about EV and Variance clearly dont belong ehre).

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just a thought...meant to help clean up this forum a bit and stop or move inane posts...like this one

Barron

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Sorry for the long post.

[bernie]

Things haven't changed. This isn't really anything new.

Ill rant a bit:

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There used to be a time when new posters were welcomed. Their first few posts would show that they had a lot to learn and the more experienced posters would point that out to them.

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a lot of new posters don't come with the attitude that they are inexperienced players who are looking to learn. No, they want to discuss their already-mad skills, which don't exist. This is going to generate a lot of negative response.

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Generally, I agree, for the most part, that this is a root of alot of it when it happens. And we see it more and more all the time. I don't see the 'new' posters that are open and receptive to learning or comparing other ideas getting this treatment. Yes, sometimes an A-HOle will chime in to them, but that doesn't last long if it does. These new ones seem to offer something other than, 'king sh*t is here, all bow before me'.

But once they've made that wonderful, 'I am better than all of you' types of posts, usually somewhere buried in their opening threads after they've been proven wrong for the most part and/or a flaw(gasp! god forbid!) has been exposed in their game, no, the sentiment isn't going to just go away on their next post. It's on them to set their own ego aside and realize they may just be interacting with players that have literally studied the living sh*t out of the game and already went through the major debates on the 'new' concept they think they're trying to present. But god forbid someone points something out inside their post that they don't think is in question but would likely really help their game more than their initial question. Then they just hide behind the old, 'that wasn't the point of my post/not my question so we won't talk about that concept' crap. That type of posting from new posters is rampant on the boards now.

If they want to come in and post like a prick, well then, they can expect an uphill trudge to gain any reputation as a respectable player/poster. They should be lucky to even get any response on threads after they come in like that.

For instance, when some idiot comes in and posts a hand where he's 'teaching' everyone how it's wrong to raise AA in the BB with 7 limpers in, then literally calling everyone morons who've countered their argument with solid reasoning, because, after all, they've played for x years, not to mention all the time put in killing their home game, read 1/2 a book and just 'knows' this is how you should play so everyone else can F off as far as they're concerned...

screw 'em.

You come on a board like this, with that type of 'tude, you can expect to have your sh*t called out. They reap what they've sown when they first posted and brought that attitude in.

But that said, this doesn't mean the poster can't change his attitude. However, the proof lies with them to show it, imo. Sometimes they don't realize(or care) that while they put themselves so high up on their own pedestals right off the bat, the only thing they're attracting are birds to cover them with crap.

end rant

b

[Dazarath]

It's human nature to do these types of things. They're not nice, and probably not correct, but we'll do them anyways. And all forums are like this. You'll have a hard time finding a forum where a "Hi, I'm ___ and I like ___" type post is welcome. Likewise, at 2+2, "Hi, I'm ___ and I'm god's gift to poker" posts aren't welcome. Post counts shouldn't mean much, but they tend to be used for heirarchical differential at all internet forums.

If a player wants to learn, he'll deal with the crap. Plus, I'm not too keen on the idea of welcoming all the fish in and buying free copies of SSHE for them, just so we can be kind.

On a different note, it's been my experience that a lot of the egotism comes from the high-stakes players. It's understandable, I guess. I'm sure they've heard all the stupid questions time after time and are probably sick of hearing them. I think this could be an argument for splitting into separate mid and high stakes forums. I mean, who the hell wants to post 15/30 hands when half the responses they get are "this belongs in small stakes"?