Stop berating the fish - HARD PROOF of why it is bad to do so

[DrewOnTilt]

In my last 2 sessions I have had 2 separate experiences with 2 of my favorite contributors that show beyond reasonable doubt that it is -EV to berate the fish.

Last night, one of my favorite fish catches a lucky draw to crack a TAG's good hand. The TAG then goes on a verbal tirade, calling the fish every dirty name in the book. The fish goes to another table, and our table breaks up shortly thereafter.

I follow the fish. He comments on this. I don't have the exact chat, but it was something like this:

Fish: Hey, are we at the same table again?
Me: yeah, that other game broke up. That one guy was being a jerk and everybody left
Fish: Which guy, there were several jerks
Me: the one to your immediate left
Fish: Oh yeah, he was being a total jerk, which is why I left

And from tonight...

I raise first in with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Another of my favorite fish coldcalls with Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], a terrible call but that's what fish do

I catch top pair, he catches a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw. He rivers the gutshot, raises me, and wins a big pot. His postflop play was not terrible but his preflop call was atrocious; even so, I said nothing. When I have Big Slick, I want QT to call me every time.

A few minutes later I flop Aces Up in a multiway, preflop capped hand and won a huge pot. He comments exactly this:

Fish: nh
Me: thanks, needed it
Fish: pot was too big
Me: after you caught that str8 on me [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Fish: i had to stay
Fish: yep
Fish: thanks for not yelling at me
Me: i woulda made the same play you did
Fish: calling me names
Fish: lol
Me: you had a decent hand, i would have played it the same way

In example #1 above, the fish got irritated because the TAG berated him, and the fish then left the table. -EV for the TAG. In example #2, the fish actually THANKED me for not berating him. +EV for me.

There you have it. Berating the fish is -EV. And I know that some of you on these boards are guilty of doing so. May I say - STOP! [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[steamboatin]

Amen, I hope it wasn't me.

[MagicMan08]

Worst post I have ever read.

[TomCollins]

I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

[FiReSiStAnT]

[ QUOTE ]
I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well said. Berating a fish isnt going to do anything but hurt you. They either are going to listen to your advice (unlikely but possible) and not put themselves in bad position again. Or they will leave the table, which is also unporfitable.

However, like you said, table talk with strong players is one of the best things you can do to get them on tilt. Players that are strong, know they are strong, and therefore will take your trash talk and abuse just to get a crack at your stack. This puts them on tilt and gives you the advantage....

Nice quote

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
However, like you said, table talk with strong players is one of the best things you can do to get them on tilt. Players that are strong, know they are strong, and therefore will take your trash talk and abuse just to get a crack at your stack. This puts them on tilt and gives you the advantage....

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't tilt a strong player with trashy table talk. If it looks to you like you did, then you are the one being set up.

Strong players don't care what you say.

If you tell me they do, then I say that they aren't as strong as they or you think they are.

Players who are prone to tilt and can't stop it or recognize it are simply not strong enough in my book to be called strong.

You will not gain an advantage in this fashion. You either already have it, or you are the fish to the strong player. Stay out of his way...

[Triumph36]

This is a fallacy - like if you say you know the right action, and do something else, well, you couldn't 'know' it in the first place.

Some players are difficult and dangerous but they will tilt, or begin gunning for you, if you say the right things. It's far too simplistic to say "You won't gain an advantage." Sometimes I think I do. Especially at heads up or short handed NL, where I spend most of my poker time.

[Dov]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a fallacy - like if you say you know the right action, and do something else, well, you couldn't 'know' it in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Knowing the correct action and doing something else without a very good reason is the definition of tilt.

I'm not saying that good players don't tilt, but I am saying that if you think they are good, you are picking the wrong target.

Play against the players that are weaker than you unless you have a good reason why you can't do that. (like being in a tournament)

If you keep butting heads with players better than you, you will lose a lot of buy ins during your education.

I'm also a short handed / HU player, and I understand what you're saying. Look at it like this:

How many times do you say to yourself, "Oh, the 3 seat thinks I'm on tilt now because of the last 2 beats in a row. He's more likely than usual to call a big bet from me."

Think about it.

[stinkypete]

[ QUOTE ]
I like berating the good players. It puts them on tilt.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is my approach. but i also pretend i dont know who the good players are, so i get to berate everyone.

[Tuben]

[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]