"I wish most of these "LAG" hand threads would die" Warning:NL400 hand

[Heimdal]

After Matt Flynn made his LAG challenge there have been posted some more or less hopeless LAG hands. I have got the impression that some posters only played LAG hands, so they could post them here (myself included I think). Almost no one wants the other posters on 2+2 to think, that they are a weak tight nit, whose only poker ability is to play pocket pairs and flop sets with them. (Something else - I found a post by ML4L in the archives and I think it’s quite interesting).

I of course also don’t want to be viewed as a set miner, that folds KK to a reraise. It’s much cooler if people think you are a winning LAG (which I am not).
And I want to be less ABC and maybe learn how to make profitable moves.

Some info: Villain is one of the better players at Party 400NL. Tight aggressive.
Earlier we played this hand: I open limp in CO with AJ spades. Villain calls in SB. 3 to the flop - QJ8 with two spades. Checked around. Turn is 7s. Villain bets $11, I raise to $35. He calls. River is a blank. I bet 2/3 pot and he calls with KQo with the king of spades. Not the best play by him, but he knows what he is doing, and perhaps he learned something from this hand.

And now “My LAG hand“:
8-handed. I limp in with 99. Villain makes it $15 in CO. Big blind calls and I call. BB has $200, villain has $740, I cover. Flop is Ks8c4c. We check to villain and he bets $35. BB folds and I call with the intention of making a move on turn or perhaps river (recently I have tried to use my stack to intimidate, if I have been up against another big stack).
Turn is an offsuit 6. I check Villain bets $85. He could have KK here but AA or AK is more likely (4 combos of KK and AcKc, 6 AA and 11 AK). I checkraise to $250. (I’m not putting another dime in if he calls because decent players rarely call the turn with a made hand and then fold the river)

I did it because I thought I could make him fold AA and AK, but on the other hand I risk $285 to win $164.

Cool lag or hopeless lag? (Or more important: do you think this play is +EV?)

[fimbulwinter]

i hate this lag or play tight crap that gets spewed. the only thing that's important is playing an integrated game and playing counter to your table image. action player PF vlaue bet turn river; tight PF steal turn river.

blek

fim

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
i hate this lag or play tight crap that gets spewed.

[/ QUOTE ]

So do I. I think that was what I was trying to say... (apparently I didn’t do a good job) The most important to me is if a certain play has a profitable expectation.

[flawless_victory]

[ QUOTE ]
8-handed. I limp in with 99. Villain makes it $15 in CO. Big blind calls and I call.

[/ QUOTE ]holy sh.t that is loose aggresive play right there!
im not trying to be a jerk, but i dont see why this is "LAG" or whatever... not that i care.

i dont really like you play on the turn and i think you shouldve led into him, or check/folded. seems like he has something good and wants to get $$$ into the pot when he makes that reasonable bet on the turn.... if he had AK and didnt plan on playing this pot for the $$$ wouldnt he check behind on the turn?

[Heimdal]

yes the preflop play is kind of standard. It was more the call-on-flop-to-take-the-pot-on-turn-play I was thinking about (I dont know/care if that's a lag play).

If he checks behind on turn it is really not good for my plan. Hmmm

[TheWorstPlayer]

As a general principle, it is not usually a great idea to try these moves out of position. He's not often going to bet the turn with a hand that can't handle a c/r.

[Finite_Risk]

I would rather try something like this where I actually had outs if I got called - like a flush draw or OESD. If called here, you have almost no chance you're ahead, and just fluffed the pot for him. What fold equity did you think you had?

Also, why do you think he's folding AK or AA here?

[Heimdal]

[ QUOTE ]
I would rather try something like this where I actually had outs if I got called - like a flush draw or OESD. If called here, you have almost no chance you're ahead, and just fluffed the pot for him. What fold equity did you think you had?

[/ QUOTE ]

Obvously it would be better if I had some outs. But I tried to play the situation, not the cards (that doesnt mean it was a good play). Regarding folding equity, I thought I could get him to fold AK or AA. The only hands I thought he would call/raise with were AKc and KK. But if he checks behind with AK (I dont know if he would do that) I don't have enough FE to make it a +EV play.

[AdamBragar]

I think somebody good enough to fold AK here also checks the turn. I highly doubt many people fold AA here. I like the idea of a turn checkraise bluff, cause those are usually pretty infrequent and can help getting your legit turn checkraises paid off.

Also, while being a LAG is cool, in the Party 400 full ring games, it's pretty risky cause there are TONS of calling stations/people who love to think everything is a bluff in those games.

If you are going to bluff with air, I'd look for typical betting situations (either common among one players or common in general) that display weakness. Try to take advantage of those situations. It doesn't seem like you had a read here that this player is weak/clearly going to fold in this situation.

[The Bear]

Okay, to comment on hand #1. I think open-limping the CO with AJs is bad. You have position and a quality hand. Why wouldn't you want to play a raised pot, especially against the super-weakies at 2/4? So much money can be made in that game by constantly playing 2-3 handed raised pots in position. Your opponents will play soooooo badly in those spots and you'll rarely make a mistake. Trust me. Raise this one up. As well as any other hand that you'll be playing in that spot, which should be a shitload.


For your LAG hand, I don't like it. First, I'm not open-limping with 99 in that game. Maybe UTG if something weird was going on, but generally not. Look at what happened in this spot by limping. Your opponent took control of the pot and put you on the defensive, out of position, with a hand that's going to miss very often. If this player is even semi-competent and can have a wide range, you're left in a brutal spot unless you flop big.

If I played it like you to this point, I'm just giving up on the flop unless my opponent is predictable enough that I'll be able to read his hand with excellent accuracy based on his turn action. But since you called the flop, we'll look at the turn.

To start, your range of hands for him is way too narrow and probably misweighted. If I were in his spot and I bet the flop/turn in that combo, my range would be at least KK, 88, 44, 66, 86s, 64s, 57s, AKc, any two connected or two-gapped clubs, AA and AK. But AA, AK, and random clubs would often be checked on the turn. I imagine that a TAG in that game would be pretty likely to check it through with AA/AK also, since he wouldn't want to play a big pot with AA or AK. If he bets, he's indicating that he DOES want to play a big pot, so he's less likely to fold.

For this to work requires that either villain decided to follow through on the turn with nothing or that he followed through with a made hand, which he will now fold, in position, to a line that doesn't look convincingly like a big hand (is this seriously how you would play a set? Would you call on that flop with a gutter? Doubt it and doubt it.) And the risk-reward is such that it needs to win often for it to be correct. And if called, you have very few outs to improve.

Overall, this seems like a pretty silly move to me. I'm not quite certain about its effectiveness against this player, but this [censored] will get you broke against good players.