$215s - Controversial AQ Hand

[nate_king1]

Why don't you bet pre flop, bet the flop, bet the turn and take it down.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]

Ok but please note that Im embarrassed everytime I do this when I flop a good top pair type of hand into a big field in a sit and go.

I would check the flop, and I would fold to the 90 chip bet on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm not quite this tight postflop, but I'm close.

Given that, would you normally follow my line with AQo in the first two seats at a 10 handed table and fold preflop?

[kuro]

The trouble with betting or even check calling is that isn't it pretty obvious what your holding because of how few hands you open limp from UTG+1. So if you bet or check-call aren't you just setting yourself up to have the pot taken away from you by someone in late position or the blinds especially if they can narrow your holdings because they have the ace of spades or a 9?

I think maybe Curtains line of check/folding here is right. You've only got 15 chips invested in the hand.

[curtains]

I don't really know if its right. Don't forget Im always playing 8 games and I play extremely well late in the tournament, so sometimes I avoid difficult situations in giant fields early in sit and go's, and I don't have a huge amount of regrets about it as my results have been better than I could have imagined (although I'm sure I'm getting very lucky so far).

Interesting post. I read it during my lunch break and have been thinking about it since then. Ultimately, I think the thing I don't like about the play is the preflop call in combination with the post flop check/call.

It seems to me, that if you're gonna call with this preflop, you gotta be willing to put some pressure on the rest of the table if the flop hits you this hard. I mean, what were you hoping for when you called preflop? Hoping for two pair or better on the flop?? If so, then you're basically looking at this a more of a longshot-type drawing hand, which you shouldn't be playing preflop UTG+1 with all those players behind you who may raise you and make it too expensive for you to even see a flop.

Thus, if that's your mindset, I think you should fold preflop.

As for raising preflop, I read that some posters said they would've done that. At first I didn't like it, but upon thinking about it some more, it could work in the right situation. If you think you're up against a fairly passive table, it might be worth it to raise it up to 45 and knock out a few of those limpers. Of course, if you get re-raised a big amount you should probably lay it down.

But anyway, I don't think this was a horrible play. Just not what I would do. I probably would've called (or maybe raised) preflop, then bet out on the flop. You probably made more money doing it your way though....

[lacky]

I play so much different than you I sometimes wonder if were from the same planet.

If you dont think TPTK is worth a bet and ahead most of the time, what do you like?

I'm stunned.

Steve

[Newt_Buggs]

If the second best hand that you're fishing for is behind you (QT+) then he will almost always bet it for you if you check. On the other hand Andathar brings up a good point where half the deck ruins your hand. I think that this can also be incentive for checking though. I don't know about the $215s, but a large % of the time I can see a flop bet getting called by someone behind you, then having to play OOP after something like a J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img],K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], or 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] comes down

[Pitcher]

Hi Guys,

I don't post very often but this one is tough to avoid. I am a very successful 215 player....very successful. Like everyone, I occassionally make a bad play or am not sure what the optimal play is....but I think this line is very poor. I believe there are only two good things to be done here.

1. Fold preflop

2. Bet out pre-flop to avoid 6 callers to begin with. A raise to T45 or T60 is more than warranted. AQo is a top 5% hand...and should be raised, especially early. At the mid-part of the tournament (depends on how many are left) it actually becomes less playable because most of the donks are out. Even in the 215's there are enough donks (1 or 2) that will invest a significant amount on this flop with TPGK and NO FLUSH DRAW. I see it all the time. This flop is perfect for that situation. If you got callers that did not re-raise, you can bet they are relatively weak, so when the Q flops, you are likely golden. Take your small pot and be happy. Relatively low risk with a big potential upside.

Please do not take offense, but this forum has become the home of weak tight recommendations. Not everything is weak tight and ICM. There is a little more room than that....

Pitcher

[curtains]

Nothing wrong with being weak/tight sometimes in these. Also nothing wrong with basing a large portion of your game on ICM analysis (I do so and I am also "SUCCESSFUL, VERY SUCCESSFUL" at the $215s).

I don't believe folding preflop is clearly better than limping for 1/60th of your stack with a top 5% hand. If you want to fold fine, but Im not ready to say limping is a clear mistake (especially since I limp).

Also there are two spades on the flop, thus it's not a NO FLUSH DRAW flop.

Anyway of course there is nothing wrong with raising too. There are a lot of different styles that can be used to win, and to win a lot of money. One play that you may make routinely may look terrible to someone else, and it may turn out both players win at a huge clip. It's a matter of finding the style that best suits you and following it.

Of course some plays are inexcusable, like being unable to solve the simple math problems at the end of sit and gos. However your choice of how to play AQo preflop here allows for a great deal of flexibility.

[Pitcher]

Hi Curtains,

My post was not directed at anyone specifically. I use ICM, call much more than many successful players at the end of games, and aggressively play good hands early (there are more fish early, so playing good hands nets the occassional double up from said donks). I also don't play anything lower than AQ or higher or 99 or higher (and that depends ....) in the early rounds. What I am saying is that by limping pre-flop you occasionally get into situations where even with a good flop you can't continue. When it flops 2 spades and there are six left behind you, you are at a big disadvantage. Now you have a tough decision that could have easily been avoided by either raising or folding pre-flop.

As for the following, I agree sort of...

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Nothing wrong with being weak/tight sometimes

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This forum is supposed to be about improving your play. Many players will look at this and conclude that "the best players play weak tight" Nothing could be further from the truth. Curtains, I am pretty sure I know one of your accounts and play SNG's against you everyday...and you are clearly not "weak tight" in general. You have the skill to play "weak tight" for greater strategic and tactical gain because you can creatively change gears. Most players don't have that ability. My issue is that the general tone on this forum is weak tight which leads to worse, less creative play. I must have read some variant of this quote a hundred times in the last month...."you just can't call / raise / limp without blah blah blah" These statements are frequently put forth by some player that you and I would routinely crush like they are some sort of "fact" I have a general comment about these kinds of quotes: Yes you can....and you frequently should play differently than what is being suggested. It is the tone I am objecting to, nothing else.

Pitcher