Stinking it up on the ultra low level tables... (.10/.25 & down) - Page 2

cat923 · #11 06-20-2005, 07:52 PM

Spend $30 to buy "Harrington on Holdem". If you read it and absorb 10% you will be a winner.

cat923

DJMaytag · #12 06-20-2005, 08:27 PM

Right around the time I started reading that is when things took a turn for the worse. I started playing a wider range of hands because of reading this, and started completing the SB more often because of something he wrote in there about pot odds (I think he was saying that even 72o was worth completing the SB if the odds were there).

I did improve in my SnG's, but my cash games went down the tubes.

DJMaytag · #13 06-20-2005, 08:42 PM

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Bull. Rockish poker is the easiest way to win.

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Then why haven't I been winning? People quickly figure out that I'm a rock and stop calling raises. Of late though, I can't seem to get anyone to fold, as I've had big pocket pairs beat by some horrible crap like suited garbage, JTo, low pocket pairs that river sets. When I get the action I want it kills me, and when I don't get it I get the blinds...

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How tight are you playing? Do you call raises with high cards? How often do you call a bet on the flop or turn and then fold later in the hand? How often do you call a bet on the river and loose a showdown? If you do these things, you are NOT playing good tight poker. Playing tight goes beyond preflop standards.

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VPIP was around 15% before I went on my downturn, so I don't think I was playing too many hands.

If I think I have the better hand on the flop, I might not call, I'd try to reraise. If I think I have a very strong hand and the other player is on a draw, I was pushing (but that hasn't been stopping them from trying... unfortunately the results have NOT been in my favor...).

One of the problems I have been having in this streak is rivered flushes and straights. So yeah, I have been calling bets and losing on the river. I know that a lot of it has been bad luck (ie AKs vs A5o and he rivers a 5 to get two pair), but it's still getting extremely frustrating.

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Then learn how to play AA without going broke.
[/quote

Care to discuss your strategy then? A couple times i've lost to lower pairs when raising 10x BB preflop. They chased, hit their sets on ragged rainbow flops, and I lost.

How about the oddball suited garbage that hits two pair on another rags flops?

At these levels it's almost impossible to tell what people have at any given time, since anyone will play just about anything. Given enough time I can get some reads based on what some showdown, but that takes a while if I even get the chance to see many of them stick around long enough to take it to showdown.

poboy · #14 06-20-2005, 09:14 PM

To be honest this looks more like a very good run followed by reality. If you cannot beat the lowest of stakes then you most certainly should not play higher, learn where it is cheap. Do you really believe a 15 cent increase in the blind makes for that big of a difference between games? FWIW losing 24 buyins at the $25 tables is not just bad luck. Post some hands, and not the bad beats. JMO

IbrakeFORrivers · #15 06-20-2005, 09:28 PM

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I'm back on here looking for answers after a pretty horrendous run the past few months where I had $320 on UB and about $100 on Paradise and now I have less than $50 between the two.

On UB I had a terrible stretch of not cashing on about 25 straight $5 SnG's and a rough couple days on the .10/.25 tables where I was getting sucked out on some really rough hands (lots of sets on the flop and getting called down by flush and str8 draws that hit). This was back in early March and I stopped playing regularly after that because I was getting really frustrated.

I returned for a few short sessions here on the lower levels on UB (mostly .05/.10) since then now that they finally added more nickel/dime tables and kept losing my buyins fairly quickly (and often doubling up and then losing it all). In that time I noticed that the games are getting wilder and wilder and regularly seeing the games devolve into total crap shoots (ie 4 or more people all in preflop or on the flop) with tons of family pots of 6 or more.

I know that many of you may be drooling at the idea of loose wild games like this, but going up against that many people that often, I get bit often by someone sucking out on me.

I know that one thing I have to work on is knowing how long to stick around. In a wild game it's often hard to leave when you've doubled up since the prospects of doing so again is very enticing, but I see others hitting big pots and splitting immediately and find that to be lame. I guess I have to balance the pros and cons of that aspect to determine how to choose when to leave.

The other thing is that I found play at the .10/.25 tables more to my liking as there were fewer players in a raised pot (3 or 4) and a good bet with an outkicked hand might win me a pot or two (NO bet will be laid down on the nickel/dime tables it seems). I'd LOVE to get back to this level, but I no longer have enough to play at this level (as I write this, I'm down to my last $1.26 after having he unfortunate luck of pushing with KK when someone had AA... which is typical of my luck in this streak...).

I kinda pride myself on the fact that I only ante'ed up $25 and took that to $600 before cashing out a couple hundred bucks and splitting the remainder up amongst UB, Paradise, and Party. I made it a point to be sure that I wasn't ever going to deposit any more into any sites, that my $25 was going to be all I'd ever put into gambling...

If I do manage to justify it, should I put in enough to comfortably play at higher levels? It seems as if the wildness just doesn't work for me at the pennies and nickel/dimes, while the .10/.25 seems like it's close to being right. I do play .25/.50 at home games with freinds with VERY short stacks ($10 buyins) and do well there, but it seems like I'd have to drop a load to have enough buyins to play at that level.

Just curious as to what some that are playing at these low of stakes are feeling about the games these days...

[/ QUOTE ]

RIGHT NOW i feel as if i want to murder all the maniacs and ass idiots on the micro-stakes. I'm taking like a month off.
[censored]

DJMaytag · #16 06-20-2005, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
To be honest this looks more like a very good run followed by reality. If you cannot beat the lowest of stakes then you most certainly should not play higher, learn where it is cheap. Do you really believe a 15 cent increase in the blind makes for that big of a difference between games? FWIW losing 24 buyins at the $25 tables is not just bad luck. Post some hands, and not the bad beats. JMO

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First off, I didn't lose 24 buyins at the $25 tables, I lost a VERY large chunk of change on a bad streak at the $5 SnG's, where I was playing almost exclusively for quite some time (and doing fairly well for an extended stretch).

The worst part of this streak started right after I finished 2nd in a 2000+ player freeroll, and wanted to quickly cash in the Bonus Bucks I got from that tourney. Having gotten another 2nd just a couple months before, I knew that the Ultimate Points I could get at the .10/.25 tables would cash in that bonus much faster than the nickel/dimes.

As far as the difference between the games, YES, there is a difference. The reads were a bit easier to read because the range of hands someone at the .10/.25 level would raise with is MUCH more narrow than the "no fold-em holdem" style you'd find at the penny tables.

This did start to change though, at least on UB anyway. Many of the players I saw regularly on the pennies that moved up to nickel/dime started filtering into the .10/.25 tables for a while there. The solid play I noticed for a brief moment as I inched up to that $600 BR i mentioned earlier DID eventually give way to some wilder play at many of that level's tables. Table selection did become more important, but by then I started having a lot more luck with the $5 SnG's and stopped plying cash games almost entirely.

I'm not sure I agree that learning cheaply is the way to go. Sure it's great for the basics, but I think that a move up is a good idea at some point to take it to the next level. Unfortunately my bankroll dictated moving down a level after losing a bunch of $5 SnG's...

DJMaytag · #17 06-20-2005, 10:33 PM

Villian in this case was VERY loose and PFR was >50%. His raise here seemed pretty small and I had posted a dead blind here, so it was only 10 cents to call.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) converter

BB ($4.68)
Hero ($5.00)
MP ($9.25)
Button ($11.93)
SB ($3.71)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.15. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB (poster) raises to $0.2, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25.

Turn: ($1.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($7.67) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $7.67

Villian bet .40 on the turn, I min raised to .80 (trying to get a call), villian min raised another 1.20, I raised another 2.00 (thinking he had AK), villian pushes all in for his last 1.66, so I was committed to call.

Should I have pushed all in instead of the first min raise? For the wise guys out there, I do realize now that I looked at it closer that my first mistake was calling a raise with a drawing hand UTG... I was thinking more of the odds at that point than the fact that I was OOP. It seems like there's only 1 place to be in position in 5 max though, and that's on the button...

DJMaytag · #18 06-20-2005, 10:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]

RIGHT NOW i feel as if i want to murder all the maniacs and ass idiots on the micro-stakes. I'm taking like a month off.
[censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel your pain, but time off doesn't make them go away...

PokerFink · #19 06-20-2005, 11:24 PM

First of all, remember that preflop is largely irrelevant, and so is VPIP. VPIP is not going to tell you what kind of hands your opponent plays. Pokertracker was built for limit, not no-limit.

[ QUOTE ]
Then why haven't I been winning? People quickly figure out that I'm a rock and stop calling raises. Of late though, I can't seem to get anyone to fold, as I've had big pocket pairs beat by some horrible crap like suited garbage, JTo, low pocket pairs that river sets.

[/ QUOTE ]

So which is it? Are you getting too much action or not enough?

When you raise preflop and take down the blinds, it is a good thing. You have won the pot.

Second of all, low pocket pairs and JTo don't qualify has "horrible crap." Low pairs are some of the best hands in the game, because they break people who can't get away from AA.

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If I think I have the better hand on the flop, I might not call, I'd try to reraise.

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This is not always correct, for two reasons. One is that you don't want to risk your stack every time you think you have the best hand. Part of no limit is controlling the size of the pot you play. Secondly, letting someone else bet your hand for you is a great way to make money.

Some people will bet more money than they will call, and bet more frequently than they will call. Some people will call more money and more frequently than they will bet. A key part of reading players is figuring out which type they are. If a player is the first type, then you should call them down instead of raising them. If they are the second type, then value bet them hard and don't slowplay them.

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Care to discuss your strategy then? A couple times i've lost to lower pairs when raising 10x BB preflop. They chased, hit their sets on ragged rainbow flops, and I lost.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets say you raise strong preflop with AA and a player calls. The flop is 9-5-2r. You bet out pot and get raised. What do you think your opponent has? There are no second best hands that could give you action. He is either bluffing or he has a set. If your opponent is bad, then you can consider calling him down. But if he is good, fold. Something like 9-5-2r is NOT good flop for AA. You do NOT want to get all-in on this flop unless you have a specific read that your opponent is stupid enough to stack off with A9 or a smaller overpair.

On the other hand, if the flop is K-5-2r, this is a GREAT flop. If you encounter resistance, it is very likely your opponent has a pair of kings. On this flop, there is a logical second-best hand that your opponent can pay you off with, so you should be more willing to build the pot.

Remember that AA is not invulnerable. When you are getting ready to go all-in with it, remember that is is just one pair. Do you really want to get all-in with one pair?

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At these levels it's almost impossible to tell what people have at any given time, since anyone will play just about anything.

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This is completely untrue. In fact, at lower levels it is often easier to put players on a hand, because most players play very transparently.

The key is not to disregard poor hands. If a player calls on a flop of 7-6-2 and then raises the turn when a king falls, they probably have kings up. Sure, K6 and K7 are trash hands, but that doesn't mean they don't have them.

Reading players is something that comes with time. Play as much as you can, and only play one table at a time. Your ability to read players, and read situations, will come with time.

Also, pay extra close attention to any posts on this forum about controlling the size of the pot and stack sizes.

poboy · #20 06-20-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Villian in this case was VERY loose and PFR was >50%. His raise here seemed pretty small and I had posted a dead blind here, so it was only 10 cents to call.

Paradise Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) converter

BB ($4.68)
Hero ($5.00)
MP ($9.25)
Button ($11.93)
SB ($3.71)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. Hero posts a blind of $0.15. SB posts a blind of $0.05.
Hero (poster) checks, 1 fold, Button calls $0.10, SB (poster) raises to $0.2, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.10, Button calls $0.10.

Flop: ($0.75) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero calls $0.25, Button calls $0.25.

Turn: ($1.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($7.67) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $7.67

Villian bet .40 on the turn, I min raised to .80 (trying to get a call), villian min raised another 1.20, I raised another 2.00 (thinking he had AK), villian pushes all in for his last 1.66, so I was committed to call.

Should I have pushed all in instead of the first min raise? For the wise guys out there, I do realize now that I looked at it closer that my first mistake was calling a raise with a drawing hand UTG... I was thinking more of the odds at that point than the fact that I was OOP. It seems like there's only 1 place to be in position in 5 max though, and that's on the button...

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First of all don't post UTG(you can't wait 1 hand for the BB). Of course you should call the minraise with any 2 since you are already in. This is a pretty decent flop for JT I would probably raise. On the turn there is no point in min-raising, get it allin. JMO