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  #21  
Old 12-26-2005, 09:16 AM
bawcerelli bawcerelli is offline
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]


2) You get called by worse aces more than you'd think. Some people just can't believe that you'd push a hand as strong as AQ or AK.

The most overused phrase on this forum has to be, "you'll only get called by a better hand." I call BS on that one.

[/ QUOTE ]
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  #22  
Old 12-26-2005, 10:02 AM
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)
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  #23  
Old 12-26-2005, 11:05 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 240
Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm in late position, I tend to play a hand slower because I want to use my positional advantage. I will push the exact same hand from the blinds because it's hard to play high non-pair hands (AK, AQ) out of position and they tend to gain value when they can goto the river.

Is this over-thinking the situation and should I play it more robotically?

2nd part question: When you say that your "results improved when I played more robotically in such situations"...what do you mean by "such situations". Is there one thing particularly about this situation that makes you push-it...your hand in particular or the stack sizes or the stack sizes in relation to the blinds?

[/ QUOTE ]

I basically mean all situations once the blinds get to 50-100/75-150 and I have like 15x BB or less. This case is small exception but the thing is there is zero chance Im folding to a reraise, nor do I want to encourage someone with 44 to do so. It's a tradeoff...sometimes a smaller raise will encourage a pair to play with you that otherwise wouldn't have (which you dont want) and sometimes itll encourage a weaker ace (which you do want). Other downsides are that your opponent can flat call preflop, which is not something you want to happen.
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  #24  
Old 12-26-2005, 11:06 AM
curtains curtains is offline
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]


The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.
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  #25  
Old 12-26-2005, 12:59 PM
KingDan KingDan is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 139
Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

What are you doing with A8o with the button here?

If blinds know you will be pushing your better hands, do you have to muck it?
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  #26  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:22 PM
Insty Insty is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 121
Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?


[/ QUOTE ]
The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a mathematical justification for it.

There is a point where if you have nBB that it is mathematically incorrect to raise and then fold to a n allin reraise.

I don't remember what the actual number is and I think 10BB is a slight overestimation, and I think it depends on your holding, but 10BB is a good number for a rule of thumb.

Does anyone have an archive link?

The Karlson-Sklansky hand rankings, although not addressing this exact problem are a look in the right general direction.
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  #27  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:28 PM
sofere sofere is offline
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.
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  #28  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:30 PM
45suited 45suited is offline
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]
The justification:

You have 1000 chips on the button. You raise to 300, and someone comes over the top, you are now risking 700 chips to call and win 1350 giving you 2:1 odds. There are pretty much no hands that are much worse than a 2:1 dog against any opponents range.

[/ QUOTE ]

To me the part of the justification that is lost is what happens when you get flat called and whiff on the flop, which is just as important. I push in spots like the OP all the time.

There's no point giving hope to someone who's got a mediocre hand by just raising. Plus, you do get called by hands that you crush, since many people can't see pushing hands that strong.
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  #29  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:31 PM
sofere sofere is offline
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Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

I completely agree
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  #30  
Old 12-26-2005, 01:47 PM
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Curtains: screw the 10 BB \'rule\'

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is interesting. SBa nd BB can minimize button's pushing with AQ value (at +$13.81), by calling about 15% and 10% respectively. Given this calling range, Button can push to advantage with 66+,AT0+,A9s+. (This doesn't mean, of course, that there might not be better plays than pushing with some hands in that range.) Moving a bigger stack to the BB (switching the 1205 and 2210 stacks) reduces the value to +$9.26.

(Remember, these are relative to a fold -- it should be no surprise that playing with AQo produces a net gain vs a fold. Whatwe'd really like to see is a comparison of the EV between a push and a standard raise.)

I've often wondered how the 10 BB rule came to be. I figured there was some sort of mathematical justification. Is that correct? Or, is it just a general reluctance to risk >x% of your stack that isn't backed up entirely by numbers?

A significant part of the argument in favor of pushing withthis hand seems to be that you will be calling a re-raise all-in. There are lots of situations in the early levels where you make a standard raise with the intention of calling if someone goes all-in behind you. Yet, people would argue that the standard raise is the better value play. Can you offer some insight into the differences, or what triggers the move to all-in instead of standard raise?

Is there a hand range, with the stacks, where you would make a standard raise from the button?

I know that's a lot of questions, but this move (supported by EV calculations) seems to go against the general advice given in this forum. I imagine lots if us are realizing we've had a leak for a while. (How big that leak is would be up to debate, because we'd have to be able to determine the EV for a standard raise.)

[/ QUOTE ]


The 10x BB rule is mainly to simplify things for beginners, nothing else. Unfortunately once these beginners become non beginners, they sometimes fail to realize this.

[/ QUOTE ]
My thoughts with the actual hand would have been something along the lines of: if I get re-raised all-in, I can call; if someone flat calls, I'll be playing the hand with position. Which would have been OK with me.

More than a 10x or 15x rule, what I'm really looking for is the thinking behind the action. I'd like to understand rather than follow a rule.

So, what is the thinking that makes you decide to push rather than make a 2.5-3x BB raise? Is it as simple as: I have to call an all-in, so I might as well push? Or, is there something more behind it?
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