Have I taken this folding thing too far? - Page 4

Degen · #31 12-12-2005, 01:33 PM

i hate that you never put the buy-in on these hands...it is so crucial...i did quick math and if i'm right this is an 800 chip tourney...in that case i call...1000 chips i probably fold

i think you played the hand great

11t · #32 12-12-2005, 01:37 PM

I call here, donks could have QJ/KJ and regular players don't complete from the SB with j6 or j2. The only hands you are afraid of are 66 and 22. Sets happen though.

Eh, barring a read I call here.

11t · #33 12-12-2005, 01:41 PM

Deeper stacks (55+ party or stars) I think raising AJ from the button is +EV but in 800 chippers I think limping here is better.

Degen · #34 12-12-2005, 01:45 PM

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If you wont play that hand for all your chips when you flop top pair on a completely safe flop, dont waste the 15 chips calling anymore.

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i disagree with this...i'd fold if the A flopped and not the J and the hand played out the same

when i call that 15 there (or raise [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]) what i'm looking for is some donkey to call off too many chips with QJ or an underpair or some other donkey hand...i'm not looking to get resistance

SonnyJay · #35 12-12-2005, 01:53 PM

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Nobody is raising AJ from the button preflop here? Why are we letting MP1 and the blinds in for a cheap flop?

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lurking around here to pick up a few tips. Mainly play limit. Please correct me but I am raising 99% of the time pre flop for this exact reason. I do not want to have a decision against j6 or whatever trash the blinds might have. You hand has +EV from late postion.Dont let the blinds play for free.

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I'm usually not raising this preflop because I'm not looking to build a pot with AJo. I'd much rather try to get paid off if I hit than raise preflop and face a likely call.

It's true that it's +EV in late position, but it's a lot harder to make this raise here than in a limit ring game where I can better forecast scenarios of how the rest of the hand goes. I don't think a raise is horrible, but I'm usually not looking to build a pot preflop this early in a tourney.

OP: I probably call, but as many have said, it's pretty close. I do think I see a worse hand enough to call.

-SonnyJay

bigt439 · #36 12-12-2005, 01:55 PM

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I don't think so, I think on this drawless flop you're usually hosed at the $30s after the 3-bet all-in.

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By what? I doubt you will, but don't list off hands that beat you, list off why he played them like that and how often you think a player would play them like that.

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when the small blind leads out into this tiny multiway pot on a board that could easily get checked around, it makes me suspect that he's trying to build a pot. would it seem worth it to him to bet a marginal hand into this 4-way 60-chip pot, trying to take it down? i don't think so, not most of the time. so when he bets i think he has at least a Jack the large majority of the time.
the MP guy calls and then the LP guy makes a small raise. the SB has to figure it's pretty likely that at least one of his opponents has a Jack. the reason i think you're beat most of the time when he 3-bets is that i think the average player at this level doesn't expect his opponent to be able to fold any sort of decent Jack here. if our villain in fact thinks this way, he's quite likely to 3-bet here with a hand that can beat TPTK because he figures to get called, and doesn't want to lose his action to any one of 12 turn scare cards. buuut i dunno if he goes ahead and pushes with a hand like QJ or JT as eagerly, cos if one of his opponents has a Jack, it doesn't figure to be smaller than J9 or so. then again he might have expected AJ & KJ to raise in LP cos he would often have raised there himself.

hmmm i'm talking myself into a call as I go. still, i do think that you'll often see a better hand here for the reasons I gave.

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Thanks for a thoughtful well-written post. The difference between the two of us is not in how well we're analyzing the situation but the "read" we're assigning to the players in the hand. Since there isn't a specific read, the read that I have on the average $33er differs vastly from the read you have. I don't think many people at this level understand the concept of buliding a pot or think about how they're opponents are likely to react with given holdings. They think good hand = chips, and fail to analyze the situational factors. I like your thought process but think this hand is about 2 buy-ins too lows to be using it. Hell, I have a difficult time folding this in the $109's without a read. Remember, we make money of donks, and lots of 'em.

The once and future king · #37 12-12-2005, 02:09 PM

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I like this post because personally, i think TPTK gets you in trouble a lot. I think a lot of the problem in this forum is everyone seems to think you MUST extract the max in EVERY situation. That is simply not true. I dont mind folding the best hand if I think I can find a better place later on and i have a healthy stack. Maybe a better question to help you deal with this is how did the rest of this sng turn out. I have been in situations like this where i let it go, and every once in a while i even let it go when i leave myself shortstacked, but i come back and win the sng. sometimes, discretion is the better part of valor.

How did the rest of this sng play out?

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Ewwww, this is utterly horrible.

tewall · #38 12-12-2005, 02:10 PM

I think my preference would be to fold it, unless on the button with many limpers, in which case I'd limp. If I did come in earlier, I'd want to raise with it, so I could commit to it if I hit a TPTK flop.

The way you're suggesting seems viable, but awfully hard one the nerves. You're going to have to guess if TPTK is good in an unraised pot, which is pretty tough. Plus you can't have your cake and eat it to. If you call, you have to take a chance of someone getting a "free" chance to improve, but if you raise, you're pretty much commiting yourself to the hand.

schwza · #39 12-12-2005, 02:34 PM

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Thanks for a thoughtful well-written post. The difference between the two of us is not in how well we're analyzing the situation but the "read" we're assigning to the players in the hand. Since there isn't a specific read, the read that I have on the average $33er differs vastly from the read you have. I don't think many people at this level understand the concept of buliding a pot or think about how they're opponents are likely to react with given holdings. They think good hand = chips, and fail to analyze the situational factors. I like your thought process but think this hand is about 2 buy-ins too lows to be using it. Hell, I have a difficult time folding this in the $109's without a read. Remember, we make money of donks, and lots of 'em.

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also a nice post. i think there are just too many crappy Jx hands that villain can have and overplay here. this is about the quality of thinking that i generally assume my opponents are doing: i have top pair - uhhhhhh, bet. oh he raised. he doesn't have anything. i'm all-in.

that's at least the thought process of my fishy roommates when they play.

#40 12-12-2005, 02:36 PM

I know consistency isn't the goal of poker, but I'm kinda new and trying to wrap my head around some ideas. In this thread AT hand people advocated a push saying that villian is very likely to play K10 this way.

Is the differnce here, that the villian was in the blinds? I think a fold is correct, but I thought it was correct in the A10 hand also. But, I'm starting to think I'm too weak/tight.