A more retarded hand of PLO8 you wont see in a long time.

[Ribbo]

http://www.pokerhand.org/index.php?p...mp;hand=170789

I want you all to name (remembering to use the EV odds calculator on the page) all the mistakes made by all the players on this hand, because there were some huge ones to say the least. I don't believe I've had such a big edge on the flop before as this 4 handed, to end up with nothing, despite even on the turn having a bigger equity than the two guys who thought they just "hit". Hehe, it's wasn't even like I slow played it on the flop though. I'm more than happy to have people say I played it badly on the turn (even though you're wrong!), but you need to back up your statements rather than just saying "cuz u sux".

[hachkc]

Undoubtedly, the biggest mistake was the limp in MP with AA23; that basically changed the entire hand. If he pots it, A365 may make a weak call or fold on the button, K653 probably folds and you may fold OOP unless its heads up.

After the flop hits, everyone has caught just enough of the flop to probably hang around even for a pot sized bet. Obviously, I don't know the players so this may be wrong or right.

As for the turn, I would say your All-in call is kind of weak as you are only playing for 1/2 the pot at this point unless you are expecting the other 2 to drop. I assume you didn't want to see 2 more callers. With 4 callers, I'd guess you figued you were beat and needed a river card for anything. Based on the hands, I can't see anyone getting away from this point at this point. Its just one of those odds times where everyone hit something in their hand that they won't get away from.

Feel free to critique.

[Ribbo]

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After the flop hits, everyone has caught just enough of the flop to probably hang around even for a pot sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, no, no. This is the biggest error right here and one I was hoping to point out. It is players terrible recognition post flop of what a good or bad flop is for them that makes losers what they are. The guy with 356 has 4% equity on the flop. The guy with A356, has 8%. You should never chase a straight on a flop where there is likely both a better low draw out and a flush draw (plus you have no pair anyway for high!). Straights are for suckers!
On the turn, I still have 25% equity 4 handed, so with the money already in the pot, I only need 20% to make it a good call. Even if one guy folds, my equity stays the same and at the bare minimum for a correct call should I be beaten for both high and low. If i'm not beaten then it's much higher, but it's really difficult to go under 25%, would require someone to have a higher set and a better low.
Yet again I reinforce that A356 on a 47x flop with 2 to a flush out in a loose game where nobody folds, is junk. You have nothing more than a gutshot for a low half of the pot, and you have to dodge an insane amount of bullets to make your straight and have it good on the river. That's why he was 8% on the flop to win.

[Mendacious]

Your equity goes way down if someone had KK, which is not an unreasonable holding with that many players in. I think you need to adjust your analysis for this possibility. Which would leave you with only 10 outs to half the pot. Depending on what you think the odds are someone holds KK, this will determine whether your play is a -EV or +EV play on the turn. The way I see it you need approximately 17 outs to make your call. If you think there is a greater than 20% chance that someone has KK, than your play was -EV.


Of course I would not have automatically assumed at that point that someone had the straight, maybe 75% or more sure that someone had it. So its that makes it pretty close to an even money expectation for you to have if you call.

I'll point out what I see was wrong then I'll note that overall I'm a loser at PLO (due to one heck of a streak at getting unlucky in big pots--If I get beat in another one by another crazy runner runner or gutshot straight by someone only drawing to that when I've got the nuts plus good redraws I'll officially go nuts) *I will also note I'm a good winner at the rest of the games I play (7 stud, Omaha H/L and holdem)* (It doesn't make sense to me to be a winner in H/L and not in omaha without a freakishly bad run of luck?)

Anyway, here we go
Mistake 1--AA23 guy didn't raise preflop
Mistake 2--AA23 guy calling a bet and a raise with only the nut low draw and a backdoor flush draw (when it's more than possible he'll get quartered) [and it's obvious AA is beat]
Mistakes 3&4--two guys calling with a wrap when a good portion of those outs make a flush--also not realizing someone else probably has similar cards killing even more outs and potentially making another quartered pot because any straight card that hits ALSO MAKES A LOW FOR SOMEONE ELSE!
Mistake 5--CP calling two allins with only an A2--I would have been the heck out of here on the flop because a lot of people chase that nut low. Too easy for him to be quartered.
Mistake 6--fourth guy calling an allin when it's pretty freaking obvious at least one (if not more) person has the same nut straight and he has no redraws.
Mistake 7 (this is out of order) K356 guy bets with only top pair and a draw with a bunch of guys acting behind him who probably have that beat.

That turn really killed you but with the $ in and entering the pot you have to call there. Way too much equity with a set and a nut flush draw. If only the jack came first...

Although equity does go way down if someone has KK... KK usually doesn't smooth call on the flop there.

I'm sure I didn't see enough mistakes though. (I'm not counting preflop calls though)

[Ribbo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll point out what I see was wrong then I'll note that overall I'm a loser at PLO (due to one heck of a streak at getting unlucky in big pots--If I get beat in another one by another crazy runner runner or gutshot straight by someone only drawing to that when I've got the nuts plus good redraws I'll officially go nuts) *I will also note I'm a good winner at the rest of the games I play (7 stud, Omaha H/L and holdem)* (It doesn't make sense to me to be a winner in H/L and not in omaha without a freakishly bad run of luck?)

Anyway, here we go
Mistake 1--AA23 guy didn't raise preflop
Mistake 2--AA23 guy calling a bet and a raise with only the nut low draw and a backdoor flush draw (when it's more than possible he'll get quartered) [and it's obvious AA is beat]
Mistakes 3&4--two guys calling with a wrap when a good portion of those outs make a flush--also not realizing someone else probably has similar cards killing even more outs and potentially making another quartered pot because any straight card that hits ALSO MAKES A LOW FOR SOMEONE ELSE!
Mistake 5--CP calling two allins with only an A2--I would have been the heck out of here on the flop because a lot of people chase that nut low. Too easy for him to be quartered.
Mistake 6--fourth guy calling an allin when it's pretty freaking obvious at least one (if not more) person has the same nut straight and he has no redraws.
Mistake 7 (this is out of order) K356 guy bets with only top pair and a draw with a bunch of guys acting behind him who probably have that beat.

That turn really killed you but with the $ in and entering the pot you have to call there. Way too much equity with a set and a nut flush draw. If only the jack came first...

Although equity does go way down if someone has KK... KK usually doesn't smooth call on the flop there.

I'm sure I didn't see enough mistakes though. (I'm not counting preflop calls though)

[/ QUOTE ]

KK is very rarely going to be in the hand. Too many players like Mendacious are actually aware of how often someone flops top set. It's not nearly as often as he tries to make out.

My friend Ribbo, the point you are arguing [ QUOTE ]
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Yet again I reinforce that A356 on a 47x flop with 2 to a flush out in a loose game where nobody folds, is junk. You have nothing more than a gutshot for a low half of the pot, and you have to dodge an insane amount of bullets to make your straight and have it good on the river. That's why he was 8% on the flop to win.

[/ QUOTE ] is exactly why his call was valid!!! First off he's not 8% on the flop, but actually closer to 20% against all nut hands and draws. Which in fact makes it a good call according to YOU!! Even though you were a little over 40% on the flop, their calls were justified by the implied odds in a loose game as described. Yeah it sucks loosing with a "baby monster", but be real. Don't whine when they draw out, isn't that the type of action you want? Especially since you're such a superior player after the flop.

Your Admirer

[Ribbo]

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My friend Ribbo, the point you are arguing [ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yet again I reinforce that A356 on a 47x flop with 2 to a flush out in a loose game where nobody folds, is junk. You have nothing more than a gutshot for a low half of the pot, and you have to dodge an insane amount of bullets to make your straight and have it good on the river. That's why he was 8% on the flop to win.

[/ QUOTE ] is exactly why his call was valid!!! First off he's not 8% on the flop, but actually closer to 20% against all nut hands and draws. Which in fact makes it a good call according to YOU!! Even though you were a little over 40% on the flop, their calls were justified by the implied odds in a loose game as described. Yeah it sucks loosing with a "baby monster", but be real. Don't whine when they draw out, isn't that the type of action you want? Especially since you're such a superior player after the flop.

Your Admirer

[/ QUOTE ]

For a start HE HAD NO IMPLIED ODDS BECAUSE EVEN WHEN HE "HIT" HE IS STILL GIVING AWAY MONEY WHEN HE BETS. At no point in the hand did K356's equity go over 13% even when he had hit. If you cannot understand equity then why are you bothering to post? My equity on the flop was 63%, this means When people call the flop they are giving me 63% of the money they put in the middle. On the turn, despite the worst card hitting I am still 25.5% equity, in a 4 handed pot this means whatever I put in on the turn I will win back plus 25.5% of what is already in the pot from the flop. K356 was 12.2% on the turn, this means when he puts another $150 in on the turn, he will get back on average 12.2% of the $750 main pot working out at $91. IMPLIED ODDS DOES NOT EXIST WHEN YOU ARE SHOVING MONEY ON EVERY STREET WAY BEHIND. What he did on the flop was call with 4% equity because he had a shot at hitting a card that gave him 12% equity. My call all in on the turn of $150 gives me 25.5% of $750 main pot which is $188. If you cannot understand that despite the worst card hitting, my hand was still profitable you really should not play the game. This shows quite how powerful my hand was on the flop, that even when all the people chasing hit their card, they still are not in a position that is particularily good.

Please stop posting comments about things you know nothing about.

[ QUOTE ]
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My friend Ribbo, the point you are arguing [ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Yet again I reinforce that A356 on a 47x flop with 2 to a flush out in a loose game where nobody folds, is junk. You have nothing more than a gutshot for a low half of the pot, and you have to dodge an insane amount of bullets to make your straight and have it good on the river. That's why he was 8% on the flop to win.

[/ QUOTE ] is exactly why his call was valid!!! First off he's not 8% on the flop, but actually closer to 20% against all nut hands and draws. Which in fact makes it a good call according to YOU!! Even though you were a little over 40% on the flop, their calls were justified by the implied odds in a loose game as described. Yeah it sucks loosing with a "baby monster", but be real. Don't whine when they draw out, isn't that the type of action you want? Especially since you're such a superior player after the flop.

Your Admirer

[/ QUOTE ]

For a start HE HAD NO IMPLIED ODDS BECAUSE EVEN WHEN HE "HIT" HE IS STILL GIVING AWAY MONEY WHEN HE BETS. At no point in the hand did K356's equity go over 13% even when he had hit. If you cannot understand equity then why are you bothering to post? My equity on the flop was 63%, this means When people call the flop they are giving me 63% of the money they put in the middle. On the turn, despite the worst card hitting I am still 25.5% equity, in a 4 handed pot this means whatever I put in on the turn I will win back plus 25.5% of what is already in the pot from the flop. K356 was 12.2% on the turn, this means when he puts another $150 in on the turn, he will get back on average 12.2% of the $750 main pot working out at $91. IMPLIED ODDS DOES NOT EXIST WHEN YOU ARE SHOVING MONEY ON EVERY STREET WAY BEHIND. What he did on the flop was call with 4% equity because he had a shot at hitting a card that gave him 12% equity. My call all in on the turn of $150 gives me 25.5% of $750 main pot which is $188. If you cannot understand that despite the worst card hitting, my hand was still profitable you really should not play the game. This shows quite how powerful my hand was on the flop, that even when all the people chasing hit their card, they still are not in a position that is particularily good.

Please stop posting comments about things you know nothing about.

[/ QUOTE ]

As easy as it may be to speak of equity in the pot and implied value of this hand "Post Mortum", you fail to recognize that most people don't play with their "Pokulator" running like you do. Yes you had an extreme advantage of equity and hand strength post flop, but as the hand played out no cards were revealed. Did your opponents know you had 2nd set and nut flush? Obviously NOT! Otherwise they would not have called the flop bet. Even a tard like you can make the easy laydown knowing they are an extreme dog going to the turn and river. Not all players use your skills of mathmatics while in a hand. You speak hastily with your remarks and retorts to comments made by others. Although you'd like to think you are All-mighty when it comes to Omaha, and maybe you are a superior player than most, it is a game of chance and gambling. Hence, bad calls and bets made by your opponents. And thus, "bad beats" given to you. And by the way, Pre-flop you were only about a 17% to come home. It's only a bad beat when you are a favorite preflop, not postflop. I never said you were wrong at any point in the hand, just that your opponent's call was justified from an objective view point. Remember once again, you are speaking about this hand from hindsight. This does raise anyone's Poker IQ at least 50 points, and in your case maybe an extra 100.

Still Your Admirer