I will review YOUR hand.

tiltaholic · #1 11-10-2005, 01:24 PM

Hey micros.

I have downswing blues.

To convince myself that I still know how and why to play poker, I am going to review your hands.

If you post a hand in this thread, with accompanying reads and info, I will give you my analysis.

If there is more than one hand (assuming anyone posts any) that does not have a response from me then it's not because I don't care, but because I haven't had time yet.

Other people can post their analyses too, of course, but hopefully they will be limited to things like:

"tiltaholic nailed it"
"when did tiltaholic turn into aaron w.?"
"i want to have your babies"*

I'm particularly interested in hands where people stop the action at a decision point, so noone gets to see the action that follows. For the record I don't think preflop questions are stupid so those are fair game too.

Ok. Let's do it!

*-reserved for shadow29 or raillerific or whatever he is these days.

#2 11-10-2005, 01:28 PM

Re: My thread entitled "Few hands from my 1/2 session tonight."

I've already posted results further down in the thread so don't look. I stopped the action at decision point for you.

adsman · #3 11-10-2005, 01:40 PM

I be taking up your kind offer, although I'm sorry you're having the downswing blues. Villian is a TAG who is trying hard.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero? and plan for the hand?

tiltaholic · #4 11-10-2005, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Re: My thread entitled "Few hands from my 1/2 session tonight."

I've already posted results further down in the thread so don't look. I stopped the action at decision point for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

your laziness almost exceeds mine. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

but fine. here's the first one.
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP3 calls, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero caps, MP3 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises

[/ QUOTE ]

you forget the Hth rule of my thread.
"H. provide reads."

Now without a read we have to go auto-pilot.

So, what do normal loosish, passive-ish people 3-bet preflop? Lets be restrictive. AA, KK, and AK only.
Of these we are only really worried about KK.

One way to approach this to do a "combination analysis". Everyone should learn how to do this on paper, and eventually it becomes easier to estimate during table conditions.

Assuming we know nothing about the deck, there are 6 ways to make AA and 6 ways to make KK and 16 ways to AK or AKs. And 28 total hands (6+6+16). For perspective, this restrictive range represent 2.1% of the starting hands (ie it would be a low range for preflop raising, but here we're talking about 3-betting)

This means, a priori we are ahead of 16/28 = 57% of his hands, behind 21%, and tied with 21%. A pretty good situation.

However, we know some important information. Namely, we have 2 aces, and there's a king on the board. This means there is only 1 way for him to have AA, 3 ways for him to have KK, and 6 ways for him to have AK. We now have about a 2:1 edge.

Based on this info alone, we 3-bet the flop because we own him.

Now, if villian happens to be a gooder player than one who'll only 3-bet those 3 hands, he's got a wider range and we're in even better shape. Furthermore, his flop action is consistent with other big pairs. And in this case, if we don't get bets in on the flop he's going to slow down on the big streets.

Also, he could be over aggressive. In this case, we want all the action he's going to give us.

3-bet and proceed from there.

Walker · #5 11-10-2005, 02:07 PM

I'm BB with 88, 4 limpers

Flop: K42 rainbow

checked to CO (LAG) who bets, I raise, two fishy CC'ers, he 3 bets, I call

Turn is a blank

tiltaholic · #6 11-10-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I be taking up your kind offer, although I'm sorry you're having the downswing blues. Villian is a TAG who is trying hard.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero? and plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

ah the old "make it obvious tiltaholic knows nothing about shorthanded play" game. it's on.

Ok. While you did provide a read, you neglected to mention table conditions and environment, which are important in this 4 handed atmosphere. But we have stuff to work with so lets go.

He's TAG? This probably means he's paying attention. (However, if he has "TAG stats for full ring" in a 4-handed situation, he might be too tight...whatever, you know this)

What sort of hands does a TAG raise in EP but not cap? AJ & KJ & AT seem like likely candidates, maybe even QJs. However so do hands like 77-99, KQ, and AQ. I think if he's a TAG we can rule out AA-TT and AK since he'd cap those for sure.

My gut says I lead the flop. In fact I probably auto-bet without thinking. Reasons to back this up are:
1. he might be a weak tag who will interpret your pf 3-bet to mean a premium hand and he could very well fold.
1a. tags don't like to get 3-bet pf.
2. if he raises the flop, we're getting 10:1 on our 5ish outs to the nuts + our overcard outs.
2a. he likely doesn't raise a "marginal" hand that has us currently beat (like ATo or QJ), giving us time to catch a card if that is the case.

Plan for the hand -- if I read him for having weakish tendacies, I'm leading the turn as well because I think he folds enough to make it profitable and rarely raises the turn. I don't like checking the turn because we're OOP and it invites a bet from him, and I don't think we can call it.

If he raises the flop I don't have a horrendous problem check folding the turn UI if he's a straightforward non-tricky TAG.

RatFink · #7 11-10-2005, 02:59 PM

Hero is CO with T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Table has been 4-5 to a flop without much pre-flop raising.

UTG is 29/10/2 - gambles it up pre-flop, but solid post. Loves suited connectors/gappers regardless of position. That characteristic I hate in this particular hand.

MP1 is 35/4/1.5 - pretty loose all around.

MP2 is 19/12/2 - solid post flop player.

UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, MP2 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop (4 players 12.5 SB) 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, MP1 bets, MP2 calls, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 3-bets, Hero ????

At this point given what MP2 did (raise and call a 3-bet and then check-raise trap the field) my spidey sense states that he is either on a set of 8's or a great flush draw with two overs (AKQJh/KQh). MP1 has been pretty predictable and most likely has paired the board somehow. UTG calling along is probably also on a flush draw or some straight draw here. If it's a straight draw then my Tens are tainted beyond losing just the T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Capping seems pointless since even if I do have the best hand right now, my equity in the pot is in the crapper to the point where I may actually lose money with every bet going in. I can't exactly fold. I want my mommy, but she can't help so I present this to Tiltaholic to see what I should do.

adsman · #8 11-10-2005, 03:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I be taking up your kind offer, although I'm sorry you're having the downswing blues. Villian is a TAG who is trying hard.

Absolute Poker 1/2 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Hero? and plan for the hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

ah the old "make it obvious tiltaholic knows nothing about shorthanded play" game. it's on.

Ok. While you did provide a read, you neglected to mention table conditions and environment, which are important in this 4 handed atmosphere. But we have stuff to work with so lets go.

He's TAG? This probably means he's paying attention. (However, if he has "TAG stats for full ring" in a 4-handed situation, he might be too tight...whatever, you know this)

What sort of hands does a TAG raise in EP but not cap? AJ & KJ & AT seem like likely candidates, maybe even QJs. However so do hands like 77-99, KQ, and AQ. I think if he's a TAG we can rule out AA-TT and AK since he'd cap those for sure.

My gut says I lead the flop. In fact I probably auto-bet without thinking. Reasons to back this up are:
1. he might be a weak tag who will interpret your pf 3-bet to mean a premium hand and he could very well fold.
1a. tags don't like to get 3-bet pf.
2. if he raises the flop, we're getting 10:1 on our 5ish outs to the nuts + our overcard outs.
2a. he likely doesn't raise a "marginal" hand that has us currently beat (like ATo or QJ), giving us time to catch a card if that is the case.

Plan for the hand -- if I read him for having weakish tendacies, I'm leading the turn as well because I think he folds enough to make it profitable and rarely raises the turn. I don't like checking the turn because we're OOP and it invites a bet from him, and I don't think we can call it.

If he raises the flop I don't have a horrendous problem check folding the turn UI if he's a straightforward non-tricky TAG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice reasoning. I'm happy to sya that on the flop I took your advice. I bet right out, he raised, I called. The flop was the T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] . There were just over 5BB in the pot.

His stats were TAG for full ring so he was too tight. On an earlier hand a player openlimped on the button I completed with two suited cards and our friend checked. I checked the flop, he bet out, limper folded and I called. I check-raised him on the turn and he folded.

tiltaholic · #9 11-10-2005, 03:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm BB with 88, 4 limpers

Flop: K42 rainbow

checked to CO (LAG) who bets, I raise, two fishy CC'ers, he 3 bets, I call

Turn is a blank

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume that by blank you mean a card less than 8.
I assume that after he 3-bets the fishy CCers fold.

Since it's heads up now, I'm more inclined to showdown this hand and see if the lag is a lag who is a little too loose and too aggressive but not insane, or a LAG who will go nuts with air. 88 has some good showdown value in the second case. If you know he's the first type however, I check fold the turn.

TripleH68 · #10 11-10-2005, 03:40 PM

How about one of those 'the flop keeps missing my premium starting hands versus aggressive players' hands.

Like your thread. Nice play.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

MP3 is 25/10/2.4. Aggressive and has likely noticed the hero raises preflop more than the average bear. And he knows I will lay down overcards when the situation presents itself.

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 raises...

Can I continue here?