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#11
11-14-2004, 02:24 AM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
the turn isnt as clear cut as a couple of the posters have made it seem, one way or the other. by betting you may get weak queens and jacks to fold, which you like. by checking, you allow yourself to get away on the river when you are behind.
he easily can have any queen here and some jacks. the fact that he check called the flop doesnt rule any of those out, since you were the pf raiser. he can also have a very big hand. in the end, i check, because i am not sure if he will fold enough queens to my turn bet. 
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#12
11-14-2004, 03:01 AM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
What hands specifically are you putting your opponent on that would make it correct to bet the turn, given your opponent's call on the flop and his call of a preflop raise in the SB?
There are a couple (AJ), but I think the turn check is a no brainer.
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#13
11-14-2004, 03:31 AM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
[ QUOTE ]
What hands specifically are you putting your opponent on that would make it correct to bet the turn, given your opponent's call on the flop and his call of a preflop raise in the SB? There are a couple (AJ), but I think the turn check is a no brainer. [/ QUOTE ] You are absolutely correct, mks. Is AQ folding here? Iffy. KQ? Probably not. QJ's not about to give up. Nevermind sets--hell, SB could have the current nuts. (Not an unlikely hand; I don't often re-raise preflop out of the blinds either with AK.) Bottom line, Hero doesn't have a hand yet, but has plenty of outs to the nuts. And one of the basic premises of NL is: check behind when you have outs. As for "building a pot," that's another really nifty thing about NL: you don't have to. You can push it in at any point, and you might even get called. This isn't limit where you pump your draws--check the turn.
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#14
11-14-2004, 10:39 AM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
[ QUOTE ]
What hands specifically are you putting your opponent on that would make it correct to bet the turn, given your opponent's call on the flop and his call of a preflop raise in the SB? [/ QUOTE ] like i said he can have almost any jack and almost any queen. say the top 50% of each. the preflop raise call is nothing, as is the flop call with a pair.
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#16
11-14-2004, 12:56 PM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
[ QUOTE ]
like i said he can have almost any jack and almost any queen. say the top 50% of each. the preflop raise call is nothing, as is the flop call with a pair. [/ QUOTE ] This is why I said what hand "specifically". QJ,QT,JT have 2 pair, KQ,KJ have a pair + openender, so now your talking about Q9/J9/J8 that you're trying to fold IF these hands will even call a 4x BB raise in the SB. So like I said what hands are you talking about? I think AJ is one, AQ is another possibility if the player is tight. There is very little value to a bet.
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#17
11-14-2004, 01:16 PM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
[ QUOTE ]
If I am sitting in the SB, I am thinking you missed your flop and I am trying to take this one away from you. [/ QUOTE ]what are you talking about???? WHY? CHECK THE TURN... DUH.
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#18
11-14-2004, 01:33 PM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
you're right. i was just trying to make the point that under certain conditions (i.e. the sb will call with a huge number of qx and jx hands preflop, and will fold to your turn bet), betting the turn isnt horrible. mostly i was responding to the posts that said you should check bc you have a draw. but yea, those conditions i mentioned usually dont hold, and checking is what i would choose.
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#19
11-14-2004, 04:48 PM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
very clear turn check. I am surprised no one mentioned folding, as against some opponents it is clearly the right play getting only 1.91 on your money with most likely 9-12 outs.
--turnipmonster
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#20
11-14-2004, 05:57 PM
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Re: ATs Under Fire
This looks like the old principle repeated around here: don't bet if a raise will make you puke.
The purpose of a semi-bluff is not only to possibly take down the pot, but to 1: disguise your hand and 2: get free cards. Your opponent gave you a free card to bust his set. He misplayed this hand because you disguised your hand with the semi-bluff; he figured both of you were on made hands and he could get a good chunk of money out of you either on the turn or the river. Question to those who think he could've folded hands like KQ and AJ: could he get those hands to fold with a river overbet as well?
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