Is checking out "unethical"?

[chesspain]

Open folding is poor sportsmanship in a multiway pot if you are not first to act.

[BarronVangorToth]

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Open folding is poor sportsmanship in a multiway pot if you are not first to act.

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Your sentence had seven too many words.

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

It's debatable whether your options post-flop when not facing a bet are Check or Bet or if they are Check, Bet, or Fold. Either way it is defininitely a beach of etiquette

One of the things I really like about the Full Tilt software is that they have removed the option to fold when not facing a bet thus protecting all players hands. So clearly someone found this to be an important issue.

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Quite simply, the people who acted behind you had more information than those in front of you.

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Isn't this always the case? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Back on topic, I've never considered this to be an issue, but it makes a lot of sense how it could be considered unethical. You ARE still doing it in turn, though, so maybe not.

[Rick Nebiolo]

A few points:

- It's unethical for the reasons stated by others.

- If a player does this he is hurting others (by not protecting other players action).

- A player who routinely folds out of turn is giving off information, IOW, when he doesn't do this a very observant player will know he has a hand he will potentially call or checkraise. Now the very observant opponent acting last may check down a very marginal value bet or not bluff off a bust. So the player is hurting himself as well as others in the hand.

And Ray's Wisdom second hand:

We have to deal with the fact that many people do this and similar breaches of etiquette. Here's an example: Let's say you are Player A acting first on the river. You are bluffing or have a very marginal hand that you believe is slightly worse than Player B. You believe Player C has a busted draw. You bet figuring Player B probably won't call because he has to fear an overcall by Player C. Player B doesn't even have to pause, he can see Player C is folding out of turn. So Player B calls, picking off the bluff or marginal value bet.

This sort of thing used to upset me. But Ray Zee in a long ago thread told me to grow up and account for this before betting the river (if I was in Player A's position). He reminded me that I will often be in Player B's position and use similar information. Finally he impressed upon me that Player C is the big loser, since his opponents will know when he has a hand that he will at least call or even raise with and adjust accordingly.

Ray of course used fewer words, and I'm no Ray Zee. But we can still learn from him.

~ Rick

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

No one here has given a good reason why checking out when it is your turn to act is unethical, i.e., not conforming to approved standards of behavior.

It is allowed by the rules (as far as I know) and does not reveal anything about the cards in your hand. Indeed, checking out can affect the play of the remaining players, but so do every other motion or decision at the table. The fact that the first player to act decided to fold is just another piece of information that the remaining players will have to factor into their decision about how to play the hand.

Edit: You are under no obligation -- ethically or otherwise -- to protect someone else's hand or action.

[BoxTree]

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It is allowed by the rules (as far as I know)

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I'm not sure that folding out of turn is allowed by the rules.

But...if I bet out of turn, I must take my bet back, and I'm not required to make a bet when it's my turn to act. But if I FOLD out of turn, there's no way I'm allowed to remove my cards from the muck when it's my turn to act. So, betting/calling/raising out of turn has an undo clause but folding doesn't.

I'm not sure what all of this means, but it's odd. Anyone know the specific ruling (or lack thereof) regarding checking/folding/calling/betting/raising/check-raising out of turn?

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

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I'm not sure that folding out of turn is allowed by the rules.

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No one is acting out of turn. It is your turn to act and you have the option to check but you decide to fold.

Also, you can -- in effect -- fold out of turn because there are many acts that will cause your hand to be declared dead. Purposely folding out of turn is likely a breach of etiquette (and possibly unethical).

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Indeed, checking out can affect the play of the remaining players, but so do every other motion or decision at the table.

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This is different. In this case you are making a play that can serve no benefit to you but can benefit another player. Poker is an individual game, each player is expected to play in a manner intended to benefit no one but themselves.

Imagine this sceanrio three players in a NL hand after the flop. First player has a stack of $600, you are the second player with a stack of $50 third player has stack of $200. There is $50 in the pot.

First player checks. You push your stack in hoping to take the pot with this pot sized bet. The third player goes into the tank, and keeps looking at the first players stack -- he wants to call but is concerned that the First player will come over the top if he calls. While he is thinking, the first player leans across the table and says don't worry about me I fold and throws his cards in the muck. Now Player two calls you because he no longer has to worry about player 1 coming over the top. Do you feel this was fair? Isn't Player one checking out just doing the same thing, leaning across the table and saying you don't have to worry that I'm going to check raise you.

[Randy_Refeld]

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It is allowed by the rules (as far as I know)

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It really depends on who wrote the rules, but no you shouldn't do it. It continues to occur becasue the palyers that would do that will never understand why why shouldn't and players generally don't want to upset the sort of player that does this (they are giving away a ton of info when they don't do it). I have only had one player complain about; on that occasion I ruled that this was a breach of proper conduct and that at the table in question folding to no bet was not an option.