what is the best buy-in to gain MTT experience

I kinda like MTT's and I do OK in low buy in STT's ($5 and $10) so I don't mind using some bankroll from time to time to gain some MTT experience. I've got a couple of questions......

What buy in gives the best 'bang for buck' if I'm looking to gain experience playing in MTT's? On one hand you have the low buy-in ($1) or freeroll ones so I could play loads of them. However I'm put off by the huge fields and the number of people who go all-in on every hand because well, it's only a buck, and if I just double through 13 times I've got every chip in the game!

The larger buy-in ones ($10 level lets say) seem to have fewer players, which I like the idea of, and more sensible play but I have the problem of not being able to fund a huge drain on my bankroll of say 20 MTT's out of the money (quite possible as I get used to them I suspect)

So is it better to play lots of 'questionable' quality MTT's or a few of the more expensive ones?

The next question is more about attitude. The few I've played (around 20 I guess) I've had the 'new-boy' mentality of wanting to finish as high as possible. This has meant that I've allowed myself to be blinded away whilst hanging on for those extra 20 places (not in the money of course). At what point do experienced players feel they are getting too far behind the chip leaders and that they must 'open up' a bit to stay in contention?

As they fall out of the money places?
As they fall behind the average chip stack?
As one 'double-up' will not get them in the money?
As one 'double-up' will not give you an average stack?

Thanks and sorry if they are dumb questions.

IMO, MTT play is so vastly different than SNG play that i would recommend the micro MTT's ($1-$3), it may take a while of playing MTT's for you to make any significant cash and as you say your bankroll may not be able to sustain more, not to mention the experience is invaluable. If players are going allin because of the cheap buyin, let them, simply fold unless you have one of the top 5 or 6 hands (fold to an allin that is), and if you feel like gambling with something less maybe even a few other hands (just wouldn't get into the habit of doing that with a bankroll that can't support the variance of taking high risk preflop gambles).

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At what point do experienced players feel they are getting too far behind the chip leaders and that they must 'open up' a bit to stay in contention?


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This is a common mistake. Don't concern yourself with keeping up. Play your game!!!! If you starting worrying about what the chip leaders or even the avg stacks have, the next thing you know you are trying to force yourself into bad situations. Just simply use your own skills.

I would aslo recommend reading HOH 1 & 2 if you haven't done so already. Must reads!!!!

[elmitchbo]

it sounds like you haven't read HOH. as the previous poster said... if you play a tourney(even a STT) without reading HOH I and II you are costing yourself money.

all of your questions about opening up your game are directly tied to your M ratio. HOH will explain that in great detail.

Thanks both for the comments. I do have HOH I and II and I'm re-reading them at the moment. I can understand M as it relates to a STT because the whole range of stacks are sat at your table. My problem (maybe I just don't get it yet and will be re-reading it anyway) is that in an MTT there will be a huge range of stacks, lets say from 15,000 down to 1,000. Even at 3000 chips I may not be in dangerous M terrirtory however if there are a couple of large stacks at my table they will be bullying me and ensuring that any pot I get into will be a large proportion of my stack.

I'm not explaing myself very well but my two good finishes in MTT's have been where I've got off to a flying start and used my chips to intimidate and bust out others, meaning I've had a constantly growing chip stack. All the rest of my games I've got away to slow starts (trying to play premium hands only in the early stages) and I've ended up getting into positions where other large stacks can mean I can only play premium hands back at them and if they don't come then I'm in trouble.

I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

[rwanger]

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I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

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This is how you should be doing it. This is how the pros do it. Think about it in terms of sit and gos...folding your way into 3rd place 4 times, will make you the same amount as having won once, and placed 10th the other 3 times.

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Thanks both for the comments. I do have HOH I and II and I'm re-reading them at the moment. I can understand M as it relates to a STT because the whole range of stacks are sat at your table. My problem (maybe I just don't get it yet and will be re-reading it anyway) is that in an MTT there will be a huge range of stacks, lets say from 15,000 down to 1,000. Even at 3000 chips I may not be in dangerous M terrirtory however if there are a couple of large stacks at my table they will be bullying me and ensuring that any pot I get into will be a large proportion of my stack.

I'm not explaing myself very well but my two good finishes in MTT's have been where I've got off to a flying start and used my chips to intimidate and bust out others, meaning I've had a constantly growing chip stack. All the rest of my games I've got away to slow starts (trying to play premium hands only in the early stages) and I've ended up getting into positions where other large stacks can mean I can only play premium hands back at them and if they don't come then I'm in trouble.

I've decided, perhaps wrongly, I'd rather go out 300th of 400 players trying to build my stack than hang on and go out 100th of 400 having folded the last 40 hands trying to find something to pin my last 1000 chips on.

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I have not reached the M part of HoH yet, but from what I understand its the sum of the SB + BB + antes as a percentage of your stack, so the other stacks at your table are not involved when calculating your M, or have i been told wrong?

If your thinking of them bulllying you when your involved in a pot, only enter a pot with them when you have position + a hand your prepared to go all the way with.

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I have not reached the M part of HoH yet, but from what I understand its the sum of the SB + BB + antes as a percentage of your stack, so the other stacks at your table are not involved when calculating your M, or have i been told wrong?

If your thinking of them bulllying you when your involved in a pot, only enter a pot with them when you have position + a hand your prepared to go all the way with.

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No you have bot been told wrong. My problem is exactly what you state in your second paragraph. If I'm going to have to commit my whole stack it must be a good hand so it may take 20 or 30 hands to find it. That means I've gained nothing in 20 to 30 hands whilst the big stacks have been in most pots picking up chips from people too scared to call big continuation bets or overbets with marginal holdings.

There is no value in trying to bet half your stack to scare someone out of a pot when that bet is only one tenth or less of the big stacks chips. If you see my point. I'm starting to beleive that there is a critical point where whilst you may still have a good M and be 'in the tournament' your chip stack is so low that apart from a run of good cards and doubling up a few times you are just 'dead money walking' You are the tournament dinosoaur, your chip stack has died but it will take a few more table orbits for the body to stop playing hands.... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

You cant worry too much about what other stacks at other tables are doing, just focus on your table. I play alot of MTT's and tend to cash more often than not, except for the last few I have played but thats another story. I had donkitis. Anyway, you have to pace yourself and stay ahead of the blinds so they arent killing your stack. I say patience and dont be afraid to push when people have folded around and only the blinds and button are left to act. The bubble is by far the time you will see more all in action since the short stacks are trying to survive into the money. Along with weaving through the early all in fest at the begining. As far as the buy in level, I like the $10 or more, tend to be better players. This is JMO and a bit of the strategy that I use. Good Luck

[nightlyraver]

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Even at 3000 chips I may not be in dangerous M terrirtory however if there are a couple of large stacks at my table they will be bullying me and ensuring that any pot I get into will be a large proportion of my stack.

I've ended up getting into positions where other large stacks can mean I can only play premium hands back at them and if they don't come then I'm in trouble.



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This is not how you should be thinking. First, apply your SnG skills here. Haven't you ever played an SnG where one guy has t4000, you have t1200, but the blinds are only at 20/40? Same idea...

Second, were you one of those kids that constantly got bullied on the playground growing up? Stand up to a bully. Not all the time of course, but if you show that you are shrewed, skilled and tougher to beat, you will not at all be the target.

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This is not how you should be thinking. First, apply your SnG skills here. Haven't you ever played an SnG where one guy has t4000, you have t1200, but the blinds are only at 20/40? Same idea...

Second, were you one of those kids that constantly got bullied on the playground growing up? Stand up to a bully. Not all the time of course, but if you show that you are shrewed, skilled and tougher to beat, you will not at all be the target.

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Firstly. It is similar to an STT where one player has taken a large lead and we have all been the short stack and gone on to win. I'm not saying it's impossible but I am saying that it's a good place to be either.Also remember that in an MTT there will be more than one person who's stack is way in excess of yours by that point in time.

Secondly, playground comaprisons are not a good example but as you started it. If I think I can take the bully there and then (ie I have a good holding) I'll come out punching and see what happens (all-in). I'f I'm totally out gunned and I'll find out who he is and and introduce the back of his head to a lump of 2x4 when he least expects it. (that option has no poker equivalent).

I've obviouslsy not expressed myself properly in the initial posts. That happens when I'm typing from work. I agree with all the previous posters who have said that you can only play your holding and the people at your table. Do we agree for example that there is a point in an STT where you have to start opening up your game to gather chips so as to be in contention at the end? Always coming third in an STT might sound good but if you always get there with 1BB left then you are almost never going to win. I beleive this to be true and I was trying to understand if there is a similar point in an MTT. I'm almost certain that there is but I can't, as yet, understand where and when that might be. It seemed logical that as there are players on other tables I would need to factor in my position and chip count in relation to those other tables in order to find that point. I may well be my tables chip leader but if my stack is only ten percent of the average stack size I do not think I'm in good shape to win the whole thing. I was playing a 400 person $25 buy-in MTT last night and, in general, the people who got off to a good start and built stacks early were the same people who were in contention as the money places started to get within reach.