Stud bankroll and a question about stud books

[bholdr]

i play almost all of the different poker varations, but i have recently been leaning more and more towards stud and omaha (i seem to do better in these games, esp the limit hi lo variants) right now, i play mostly .50/1$ and 1/2, though i wonder if my bankroll could stand the higher limits (it hovers at about 600$, as i win a little and pay my internet and phone bills, sometimes besting 1000, sometimes as little as 400[stupid holidays]). However, i find myself hesitant to move up. is the standard deviation larger or smaller (vs hold 'em and omaha) for a decent stud player?

how much of a roll will i have to retain in order to play in higher limit games? i've seen lots of real-good-looking 2-4 and 3-6 games, that i am confidant that i can beat (long term, of course), but have been to concerned about the risk of ruin to sit in. a friend hinted that stud bankrolls don't have to be quite as big as others, but i'd like to hear from you guys before i dive in.

can't really afford to go broke, poker pays the internet bill, and is my going-out-on-the-town money, so the ROR has to be under control.

also, though i know i could do a search on this, what, in your opinion, is the best stud book out there for somebody in my position? I've read several holdem books, TOP, HPFAP, etc, but the only stud-specific instruction that i've had has come from the section in supersystem, which doesn't really apply where i play. your opinions are appreciated.

[Al Mirpuri]

Stud bankrolls need to be the same as HE bankrolls. Use the 300 bb formula.

Books:
7CSFAP
The book by Roy West

These two are minimum requirements.

[Andy B]

I don't know about the whole 300 BB requirement. I've never had a 100 BB downswing playing high-only stud, and I used to play quite a lot. I've had them playing stud/8 and hold'em, though. I would also question just how disastrous it would be if you lost your bankroll. You can't be making that much playing at those limits, and you could always get a job, couldn't you? You could maybe not go out boozing some Friday night, God forbid. Well, scratch that last one. I mean, if you go bust, how hard is it going to be to come up with $20 to pay your internet bill?

I don't see anything wrong with playing $3/6 with a $1000 roll myself. I think some players are unnecessarily holding themselves back because of this whole 300 BB thing. Whether or not you're one of them, I don't know.

How can the stud section in S/S not apply to your games? It's excellent. 7CS4AP is even better, though, so if you're going to play this game, you should get it, too.

[bholdr]

i felt that at the limits i play, some of the more advanced concepts in supersysetm could only get me into trouble: isolation re-raises that won't work ar loose/passive tables, check raises that don't happen because of overly passive players, etc. the body of the text does form the basis of my play, however. i didn't mean to give the impression that i have completly disregarded chip reese's excellent advice. in addition, ty for yours.

but if you think that there is more value in 7csfap, i will buy it and read it. i am a fairly successfull hold 'em and omaha player, but i just like stud more. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
I would also question just how disastrous it would be if you lost your bankroll. You can't be making that much playing at those limits, and you could always get a job, couldn't you? You could maybe not go out boozing some Friday night, God forbid. Well, scratch that last one.


[/ QUOTE ]
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

no disaster, it's just a point of pride for me that i am able to beat the rake and pay a couple bills. i make about 400$ a month playing about 50 hours. got a job, that's what pays the rent! and no way in hell i am staying in on a friday night!

ty again
gonna take a shot, as soon as i grind back what i just spent on christmas presents. (update coming in febuary <sigh&gt

[Andy B]

I've won quite a bit in the last few months, and most of it seems to have disappeared....Oh well, I've had fun.

Yes, there is a lot of literature aimed at middle-limit players which assumes that your opponents are playing reasonably well. Obviously, if you're playing $1/2 on-line, some of your opponents are going to be playing quite badly. If your raises aren't going to knock people out, don't raise for that reason. You might raise anyway, but trying to knock out people who won't be knocked out is a recipe for frustration. There is a loose games section of 7CS4AP which talks a lot about how to play in these types of games. It alone is going to be worth the cover price, even at those limits.

Since you have a day job which hopefully covers expenses, I'd suggest that you maybe stick your neck out just a bit and at least look at $2/4 and $3/6 games and hop in if they look inviting. Don't go outside of your comfort zone, and it's OK to hit and run. And if you happen to throw off $100-200 in one of these games, don't try to get it all back in the same night playing $1/2. You'll have to work your way back slowly.

Maybe you could get a better-paying day job and you could just build a bankroll, rather than spending it all on beer.

BTW, you mentioned high-low games in your original post, and if you're going to play either stud/8 or Omaha/8, Ray Zee's book is a must.

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
Books:
7CSFAP
The book by Roy West

[/ QUOTE ]

But surely in the reverse order, no?

[Andy B]

Well, that's the order I read them in, and I've done OK. Of course, I read 7CS4AP a few times before I ever set foot in a card room, and I didn't read the West book until September or so of this year. I don't think I missed out on much, as I don't particularly recommend the West book myself.

[bholdr]

i have added the books to my christmas list thx again

[imported_big ben]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about the whole 300 BB requirement. I've never had a 100 BB downswing playing high-only stud, and I used to play quite a lot. I've had them playing stud/8 and hold'em, though.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know about this Andy- everything I've read has seemed to indicate that stud high has the highest variance of any poker game, while stud-8 has the lowest. I've definitely dumped around 200 BB's, but I'll admit that I was multi-tabling like a fool following my fish- I think some of the best players were stalking me at the same time. Stud-8 I've never had a problem, but I don't multi as much- you must be good enough to avoid being in jammed pots where you don't belong.

Anyway, w/ a $600 roll, Andy's right- you can probably get your feet wet without hurting yourself, but don't be suprised if you're forced to rebuild part of your roll if you catch cold cards. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[Andy B]

At low and middle limits these days, hold'em has a higher variance than stud, because a lot of money goes into the pot before the flop. I would guess that high-limit stud is somewhat higher variance than high-limit hold'em. High-limit stud has a propotionally higher ante than low- and middle-limit stud, but the structure for hold'em is about the same whether it's $.10/20 or $10k/20k. My one shot at $75/150 stud was about the most aggressive game I've ever sat in. I'm guessing that most $75/150 HE games aren't often capped six ways before the flop the way Canterbury's $30/60 game sometimes is.

If you can multi-table stud, great. I can't. I can't even multi-table hold'em. I mostly play live, anyway, and I have never played on-line for significant stakes. If you're experiencing big losing streaks, that may be a sign that you shouldn't be playing more than one table.