88 Against RobDiamo

ggbman · #1 11-28-2005, 02:29 AM

I've only played a little against him, but he seems solid and I have also seen him play the 50-100 NL game on UB. His turn play here is odd, what do you think here?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (7 handed) internettexasholdem.com

MP2 ($931)
CO ($2393.50)
Button ($1417)
SB ($252)
BB ($1831)
Hero ($1960)
MP1 ($474)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $10.
Hero raises to $75, 1 fold, MP2 calls $75, 4 folds.

Flop: ($180) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $150, MP2 calls $150.

Turn: ($480) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 calls $706 (All-In), ...

(He shoved the turn if it wasnt clear)

Garland · #2 11-28-2005, 02:57 AM

Turn play isn't odd at all. Any other decent bet pot commits him, so he should simply push. Obviously he thinks he has the best hand--or less likely making a move calling the flop and waiting to see if you're gun-shy on the turn. Given your description of solid villain and giving up the initiative by checking the turn, it's a clear fold.

Also, I personally would probably not make a habit of open-raising 88 UTG, even 7 handed.

Garland

ninjia3x · #3 11-28-2005, 03:12 AM

89hearts would be something he could hold.

ggbman · #4 11-28-2005, 04:03 AM

You don't think i am getting floated a lot on this kind of flop? I mean there have to be times where he doesnt just muck a small pair on the flop or when he floats me with overs right? What does he expect a call from on this board with this action that is going to be weaker than a hand he could have here?

etizzle · #5 11-28-2005, 04:08 AM

it is certainly possible he is trying to take it away. That is true.

All the same I think you gotta fold it here, unless you guys have more history that youre not mentioning. Against some people I would call quick here.

Garland · #6 11-28-2005, 04:28 AM

It's bad to have a limit mentality on a no-limit hand.

Could you have the best hand? Certainly.

Do I feel you're justified in making the call based on pot odds with no particular read on villain other than he's solid? No.

Muck. Make note of the action, and move on with the next hand. This is the correct play given that you checked. The only other way to play it is to push the turn yourself.

Garland

ggbman · #7 11-28-2005, 04:32 AM

Your right about how it's bad to have a limit mentality for a NL hand, i really try not to. The thing is here, obviously i'm not going to bet because worse hand will never come along. The check here seems obvious so i can feel him out. After he pushed, i just felt like he might view my check as a sign of weakness and push literally any pair or draw thinking he might have the best hand or that my hand is not strong enough to call.

I ended up calling here. I am not ready to post results yet, but the reason i posted this hand is because i will often make big bluffs but rarely big calls, so i wanted some input here. i respect that you think this is a muck Garland.

Garland · #8 11-28-2005, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i just felt like he might view my check as a sign of weakness and push literally any pair or draw thinking he might have the best hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, so this is where you assign hand values for villain and see if you should call:

Hands you beat based on solid villain:
33 (6 combos), 44 (6 combos), 55 (6 combos) 66 (6 combos), 89 (8 combos) [however this hand has 11 outs against you]
Hands that have you beaten:
22 (3 combos), 77 (3 combos), 99 (6 combos), TT (3 combos), JJ (6 combos), QQ (6 combos), KK (6 combos) AA (6 combos), AT (12 combos)

I'll account for the "overs" possibility for hands you beat by basically cancelling it with other combo hands that can have a T in it such as KT, T9 or JT. In addition, the weight of the balance is heavily on the side of a hand with a T, where "overs" has 6 outs working for him.

By my count, there are 32 hands you beat (24 you beat soundly, but 8 have a good chance to beat you) and there are 52 hands that absolutely crush you. I don't think you can soundly call here.

Given that you've posted this and you said you called, I'm just about certain you won the hand. However, you're unsure if it's a long term correct decision. I would still soundly say "no".

The reason why I think pushing works a lot better than calling is because the burden is on villain now. You punish him for any draw he could have, and you make him think if his hand is any good against you. I'll bet he folds many, many hands of the hands that crush you. Your hand simply isn't strong enough in this scenario to check call the all-in.

Garland

hit_the_set · #9 11-28-2005, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
but he seems solid

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you sure? Have you seen his stats?

p.s: CALL

greygoo · #10 11-28-2005, 07:28 AM

What's up with solid villain who played 50-100 NL UB having less than 50BB on the table? Villain is kinda too short to make that call on the flop with a hand like 98, no? I normally fold these hands pretty quick without a decent read.
P.S. I can easily see myself pushing a set here vs certain people when I think I can get a call from an overpair and there are too many river cards to scare OOP PF raiser.