89s - Page 2

crunchy1 · #11 09-23-2005, 11:58 AM

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a raise behind me has a good chance of me making an incorrect play (whether that play is folding/calling/raising).

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what incorrect play are you worried about making? isn't your turn decision based on pot odds?

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Folding when I should've called; calling when I should've folded; calling when I should've raised.

If I get 3-bet after c/ring the turn I'm going to have correct odds to call to my trip/2-pair outs - but I've now put in 3BBs with the worst hand. One that might only have 3 outs (against a flush draw if player2 calls as well) in which case I'm making an incorrect call based purely on pot odds.

I guess when it came down to it I was so undecided about where I stood that check/calling seemed like the best option. I doubt a c/r was going to fold either player. The worst case would be missing value if they were drawing. OTOH - if I'm behind I'm drawing pretty thin (if not dead) but, with the chance that I've still got the best hand, I thought it was a situation where I could see the river for 1BB and then reevaluate.

crunchy1 · #12 09-23-2005, 12:00 PM

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This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

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I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

Redd · #13 09-23-2005, 12:08 PM

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This was close to my thinking. I was planning to c/r the flop

[/ QUOTE ]In a small pot, is this really necessary? I usually reserve this sort of play for a 10-bet pot where leading doesn't protect my hand.

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I think so because there's dead money from the posters and I've got a good chance to clean up a lot of outs if they're holding hands with any 1 card 10 or higher (i.e. Q3, K5 type hands).

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Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

Conversely, giving a free card on the off chance that it gets checked around will usually cost you money.

Aces McGee · #14 09-23-2005, 12:09 PM

I don't like a turn checkraise nearly as much as just leading the turn for the reasons you give.

Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

-McGee

krimson · #15 09-23-2005, 12:13 PM

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Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

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Although having people call incorrectly is profitable, it is also profitable for people to fold, even if they have weaker hands, due to the fact that it increases our pot equity. Exactly how to calculate which is better in this situation, i have no freaking clue.

crunchy1 · #16 09-23-2005, 12:15 PM

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Does being raised on the turn face you with any tough decisions?

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Tough decision - no. I think it's a pretty easy fold against an unknown.

Correct decision - therein lies my issue. I'm not sure what percentage we assign to an unknown bluff-raising the turn here.

Aces McGee · #17 09-23-2005, 12:18 PM

hmmm. Seems to me that if it's an easy decision, it has to be correct.

-McGee

crunchy1 · #18 09-23-2005, 12:22 PM

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Why would you want them to fold a 3-outer in a 6.5SB pot? Their calls are profitable for you by the FTOP.

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Like Krimson said reducing the number of players increases my chances of winning the pot. I also think that you're correct as well in stating that this line of thinking isn't as valid in a small pot.

I think that leading, check/calling and check/raising are all probably +EV plays on this flop. But clearly one has a greater EV than the other two. I'm not sure which option that is. At the time I thought it was check/raising if the bet came from LP and check/calling as the action played out.

crunchy1 · #19 09-23-2005, 12:27 PM

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hmmm. Seems to me that if it's an easy decision, it has to be correct.

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I understand where you're going but, it's fallacious to say that just because a decision is easy makes it correct.

It may be a default to bet/fold the turn here against an unknown. Sometimes, however, that unknown is going to be bluff/semi-bluff raising. In those cases even though our decision to fold was easy - it is certainly not correct.

Aces McGee · #20 09-23-2005, 12:37 PM

I, too, see where you're going. I don't agree entirely, but the differences are subtle enough that it's not worth derailing the thread over. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

-McGee