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  #11  
Old 09-14-2005, 01:42 PM
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Default Re: I think that I don\'t raise often enough...

While this is very true about raising on the flop when you would call a bet on the turn, I think there are many (obvious) times to where calling on the flop is correct. Like the previous post stated "why always worry about 6 outs?" Ex. CO 4BB u call BB with 1010 against a loose/agressive player who you konw will bet the flop with a wide variety of hands and likes to fire multiple shells. If the flop comes 9 65 with 2 diamonds. You check he makes his standard raise and you just call. Now, lets consider the otpions. He could A: have you beat and therefore you would be saving money by just calling. B: you have him beat but you can induce him to bluff on the turn where you can make your raise (or fold if you sense strength). C: you have him beat and a hand like AK catches on the turn where you tell yourself on the flop that you will fold is such a card comes. While raising on the flop protects your hand it gets you into some troulbe if he just calls the flop with a hand like JJ or QQ (whihc he wouldnt 3 bet) and anotehr rag comes off on the turn like a 2 c. Then you might overplay your 1010 and cause yourself some trouble. Just another variation to the last post. THOUGHTS???
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  #12  
Old 09-14-2005, 02:23 PM
foldem foldem is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: AZ
Posts: 81
Default Re: I think that I don\'t raise often enough...

[ QUOTE ]
While this is very true about raising on the flop when you would call a bet on the turn, I think there are many (obvious) times to where calling on the flop is correct. Like the previous post stated "why always worry about 6 outs?" Ex. CO 4BB u call BB with 1010 against a loose/agressive player who you konw will bet the flop with a wide variety of hands and likes to fire multiple shells. If the flop comes 9 65 with 2 diamonds. You check he makes his standard raise and you just call. Now, lets consider the otpions. He could A: have you beat and therefore you would be saving money by just calling. B: you have him beat but you can induce him to bluff on the turn where you can make your raise (or fold if you sense strength). C: you have him beat and a hand like AK catches on the turn where you tell yourself on the flop that you will fold is such a card comes. While raising on the flop protects your hand it gets you into some troulbe if he just calls the flop with a hand like JJ or QQ (whihc he wouldnt 3 bet) and anotehr rag comes off on the turn like a 2 c. Then you might overplay your 1010 and cause yourself some trouble. Just another variation to the last post. THOUGHTS???

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why it's often correct to lead the flop in this type of situation. However you need to incorporate leading the flop with a wide range of hands (sets, two pair, over pair, draws, middle pair) into your game, making it harder for your opponent to raise you with air. Check raising is just going to get you into trouble by bloating the pot out of position.

If you are in position and an agressive opponent bets into you and you have a medium strength hand like the one in your example than you can raise the flop for information and to charge draws. This also allows you the option to bet or check behind on the turn if a scare card comes off or you believe you may be beat.
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  #13  
Old 09-14-2005, 06:17 PM
SpeakEasy SpeakEasy is offline
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Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 51
Default Re: I think that I don\'t raise often enough...

[ QUOTE ]
While this is very true about raising on the flop when you would call a bet on the turn, I think there are many (obvious) times to where calling on the flop is correct. Like the previous post stated "why always worry about 6 outs?" Ex. CO 4BB u call BB with 1010 against a loose/agressive player who you konw will bet the flop with a wide variety of hands and likes to fire multiple shells. If the flop comes 9 65 with 2 diamonds. You check he makes his standard raise and you just call. Now, lets consider the otpions. He could A: have you beat and therefore you would be saving money by just calling. B: you have him beat but you can induce him to bluff on the turn where you can make your raise (or fold if you sense strength). C: you have him beat and a hand like AK catches on the turn where you tell yourself on the flop that you will fold is such a card comes. While raising on the flop protects your hand it gets you into some troulbe if he just calls the flop with a hand like JJ or QQ (whihc he wouldnt 3 bet) and anotehr rag comes off on the turn like a 2 c. Then you might overplay your 1010 and cause yourself some trouble. Just another variation to the last post. THOUGHTS???

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, sometimes a call is correct.

Using my approach, I'm trying to put him on a range of hands and figure out what cards (how many cards) would slow me down or make me fold to his bet on the turn. For example, if I think that he simply has overcards to the flop (no apparent draws), then there are only 6 outs that really concern me. This means that there is roughly an 85% chance that I am going to call the turn bet. Therefore, I raise the flop.

There are times that I will call, even using this strategy, and you give an example. A lot of it comes down to your read of his range of hands, your read of what he puts you on, etc. -- very situation dependent. My point is to add to your arsenal an estimation of what you will be doing on the turn (the probability that you will be calling the turn), and then use that information on the flop to ramp up the aggression.

As you get generally more aggressive, this helps your game and table image, reduced bluffing against you, and all the other good stuff that comes from generally more aggressive play,
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  #14  
Old 09-15-2005, 01:21 AM
tpir90036 tpir90036 is offline
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Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 563
Default Re: I think that I don\'t raise often enough...

[ QUOTE ]
For example, if I think that he simply has overcards to the flop (no apparent draws), then there are only 6 outs that really concern me. This means that there is roughly an 85% chance that I am going to call the turn bet. Therefore, I raise the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't disagree with your raising... but your math is off in terms of what is effective for the situation:

1) They aren't always going to have overcards... so the 85% can't be applied straight-up.
2) A good player will be able to read your hand for what it is and might fire the 2nd barrel no matter what overcard comes. So now instead of "dodging 6 outs".... you might be trying to dodge 10 or more.
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