Comments on TSP's private game with Dcfir, schneids, alexsem etc.

skp · #1 08-16-2005, 05:56 PM

I watched a heckuva game last night. Crympayz's 15-30 private 6 max table with TSP himself, Schneids, Dcfir, AlexSem, Kakmasta (sp?), the derelict etc.

I sat on the rail and watched the game for a good 90 minutes or so while I was doing some office work.

Tough game. Not one that I would ever play in except for educational purposes.

But in any event, I do have some observations and comments which hopefully we can all discuss. I preface my comments by saying that I have very little experience playing short games. So, If I am out to lunch with some of my observations, well, I am sure you guys will let me know.

Overall, it seemed to me that all of you were playing too aggressively. The one notable exception was dcfirths who I thought had a good mix of aggressive value bets, aggressive bluffs, rope-a-dope strategy, simply giving up now and then etc.

As an example of over-aggressive play, I was amazed that in the whole 90 minutes or so that I was watching, there was hardly an occasion where the small blind open-limped. If everyone folded, the small blind invariably open-raised. To me, that simply has to be suboptimal strategy. The bb has position on the sb. The bb ain't folding frequently to the sb's raise because he knows the sb has light open-raising standards (in fact, It seemed like no standards at all...it was just raise everytime). Playing weak hands for a raise when out of position does not yield optimal results.

It's true that by raising, you seize the initiative. But this mitigating factor is largely negated by the fact that the bb would often take back the initiative with a preflop 3 bet or a flop raise. Further, even if there was an advantage to be gained by seizing the initiative, I am not sure that the cost incurred to gain that advantage (i.e. the extra small bet) was worth it to counter the positional disadvantage.

Overall, I would probably limp a lot more from the sb. I wouldn't fold given the blinds structure whereas I might well fold extremely weak hands in the 30 game.

Now, of course, limping doesn't necessarily mean that you will see the flop cheaply. The bb might and likely would raise. You might then argue "what good then comes from my calling? He now has position and initiative" Well, there is no pat answer to that. You simply must play good poker postflop. You may also be able to take the chips from the raise that you didn't make preflop to put in a loose bet or raise postflop (now and then) when there is more info at your disposal and when it is easier for him to misread your hand.

Also, once they see you limp in with relative "mosters" such as Q9 offsuit, A6 off suit, 98 suited", they will reduce their preflop and postflop aggression themselves.
In fact, I am thinking out aloud here (so to speak), but you generally want to play small pots when out of position and big pots when in position (all other things being equal). Open-limping from the sb helps achieve that goal. Open-limping with relative monsters like A7, Q9 will also enable you to limp in with 93 offsuit and not give the other guy a license to steal.

Another related observation is that if the button open raised, the sb never just called. He always folded or 3 bet. Again, there has to be times when calling is best given the positional disdavantage. There are also times when you want to have 3 way action rather than 2 way action in order to make the pot more protected postflop.

Anyway, I have more to say but no time to say it.

I look forward to your comments on these limited observations.

Paluka · #2 08-16-2005, 06:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Another related observation is that if the button open raised, the sb never just called. He always folded or 3 bet. Again, there has to be times when calling is best given the positional disdavantage. There are also times when you want to have 3 way action rather than 2 way action in order to make the pot more protected postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

We had a big thread about this a while back. I'm a big call the button raise from the small blind guy.

MrTeddyKGB · #3 08-16-2005, 06:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
We had a big thread about this a while back. I'm a big call the button raise from the small blind guy.

[/ QUOTE ]

link?

ggbman · #4 08-16-2005, 06:47 PM

I was TheKakmaster in this game, and there's definitly some interesting stuff to discuss. In general with these types of games, some of the players have played against each other in the past. TSP, schneids, and Dcfir played much aggressively against each other than they did the rest of the field. This probably led to some other players (me) playing a little more loosely when these guys were tangling. Your observation about the blind play was pretty accurate. I probably open completed more time than anyone in the small blind, but quickly realized this wasn't going to work with how aggressive everyone else was playing.

I felt like i had to play more aggressively to play profitably in this game. Players in this game were good at adapting to how someone was playing, so mixing it up was very neccesary. I can recall 4 multi-street stone cold bluffs i made, and while i only took down 2 of the pots, i think the other 2 helped my table image. Schneider made a crack or 2 sitting down, he thought i was playing like a jackass. Anyway, there were a few hands i wanted to post, i'll see if i can find them.

Barry · #5 08-16-2005, 06:52 PM

Yeah I kind of agree.

I got into the game much later in the evening and there did seem to be a little too much testosterone in evidence.

There was a lot of open raising PF with junk and 3 betting with marginal hands and a bit too much coldcalling as well. And that's not to mention the post flop stuff. But I guess that is to be expected in games like these.

ggbman · #6 08-16-2005, 06:57 PM

Yeah i loved that comment you made Barry. I believe it was, "I love it when you guys get in dick measuring competitions."

skp · #7 08-16-2005, 07:06 PM

Yes. No doubt the setting would probably cause a lot of guys to play differently than they normally would. That is to say, it's a 2+2 game. We all know that TAG play generally wins. So, the natural inclination is to play a style more TAGish than what you normally might (and perhaps to your own detriment).

BTW, as I said, I don't play short games so I could be way off on this: Someone in the other thread scoffed at TSP coldcalling a raise with QJ off. IMO, there is nothing wrong with the play at all. The reason why we don't coldcall with QJ in ring games is because of domination. That's not really a concern in the 6 max games given the raiser's broad raising standards.

I would think that playing broadway connectors or 1 gappers would be routine in short games when you have position. Maybe you could 3 bet rather than coldcall but always 3 betting has its own set of problems. I would prefer mixing it up with 3 betting and coldcalling with KQ,Qj etc.

scott8 · #8 08-16-2005, 07:11 PM

It should be obvious, that against smart, thinking players, you must vary your play.

Schneids · #9 08-16-2005, 07:12 PM

I was probably playing about C+ poker last night. Especially during my announced "tilt" stretch that was very therapeutic. My apologies.

I agree with you about cold calling from the SB and have had BK razz me so much in the recent past about how he believes I cold call button raises waaay too much from the SB. I know I did it last night too it just must not have been while you are watching.

I only cold called Barron's raises, and once or twice on ggbman. Barron's was entirely cuz I was goofing around and had somewhat playable hands vs his hand ranges, and ggb's cuz well I thought I could handle myself postflop and put the youngster to the test a bit [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]. Also, fwiw, one of the things I hate more than anything is a good player open cold calling my raise from the CO or button. Stoxtrader knows better than anyone this as he is doing it all the time against me lately and it's been giving me fits. Just food for the thought.

Looking at my PT I see I was 38.55/2562 in the game with AF's of
flop 1.51, turn 1.51, river 2.46. That's pretty aggressive but not so out of whack. In a game where most pots are HU and the aggressor is often being the aggressor w/o much, I think it's ok for you to play aggressively and probably appear like you're going overboard.

Your point about OoP vs in position pots is duly noted. I agree fully and try as much as possible to play that way.

ggbman · #10 08-16-2005, 07:16 PM

Ok, here are some interesting hands.

Hand 1: BB is Fianchetto. We have been playing our blinds very aggressively, he has been playing back at me after i showed some ridiculous bluff a while ago. (We were all showing uncalled hands)

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

River: (8 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12 BB

This one was against schneids, we have played a few pots, and i think he respected my play.

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls.

Flop: (4 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero 3-bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

And one more against Schneids...

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (2 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, Hero raises, BB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Those are a couple of the hands i thought were mildly interesting.