Deeper thoughts about pot limit Omaha? With hands (long)

[Bozeman]

First, I am on a run of sorts in PLO and perhaps on a bad streak in NLHE (mostly suckouts, but maybe I am clashing too often). Now that I am probably going to play more than a few of these (especially since pokerstars' NLHE have 300+ entrants), I would like to feel like I have more control/understanding of PLO than I do.

First, some general questions:
What else do you raise with to disguise your AAs?
What are reasonable stealing hands?
Should you try to limp reraise if the stack sizes are right? With what hands?
When do you call a raise/reraise?
What are decent bluffing and semibluffing flops?
When do you call instead of raise with a big draw?
What other questions should I be asking?

I have read Ciaffone/Reuben, are there other books I need?

And now some hands from a 73 player tourney ($55 PokerStars).

Hand #8: First pot with any of my money in it.
Three large stacks, rest near starting (like me with 1500 before I put in 20 BB)
MP raises to 70, button calls, sb folds, I call with 6s Kh Ah Kc. ?
Flop is Kd 7c 9c, I go for the checkraise, MP bets pot, button calls, my potsized cr takes the pot. ?

Hand #9: did I set myself up for this?
cutoff and button call, I call out of sb with Ks 7s 5h 7d ugh?, bb checks.
Flop: 7h 9d 3s, I bet pot, bb folds other two call.
Turn: Tc, check, check, pot, call, fold ?
River: 8s, check, check, I lose to Td 4s 6d Ts 's str8 (and am thanking the pokergods that the board didn't pair).

Hand #11: I don't know what I was thinking
UTG+1 calls, I call in cutoff with Td 9h 3d 8h, button mini-raises, blinds fold, we both call.
Flop: 9d Qs 6d check, check, pot, fold, call thinking he has a big pair? or maybe I liked my double gutshot.
Turn: Ad He bets 250 into 450 pot, I checkraise to 700 thinking I have his 3 aces beat.
River: Qc I check thinking I'm folding, but he checks and my hand wins (he had 7s 7d 5d Ts)
Now I have decent stack of 2630.

Hand #31: How was this?
I have 3150 with 50 of that in the bb.
I check after button and sb call with Qs 3d Ad Kh.
Flop: 8c 4d Qd I bet pot and button calls.
Turn: 5d, I bet 2/3 pot (300) and take it down with the nuts at the moment.

Hand #48: Three mistakes
After everyone folds, I call in the sb with 4s 5d Jd 8s (blinds 50/100). BB raises to 300, I call.
Flop: 8c Ah 4c I bet the pot to fold anyone without AA, he raises the pot, I fold. He claimed he had AA with no club draw, and I believe it.

Hand #53: Big draw
SB calls, I check in the BB with 5h 6c 2s Th. (blind 75/150)
Flop: 4s Qh 3c. SB checkraises my pot bet, I push all in for only another 975 into a pot of 1800. Called.
Board: 4s Qh 3c 3d 2c and I win against Kc Qc 7c As.

Hand #80 I get a big pot to move to 7650 chips.

Hand #116: Semi-bluff or value bet?
I raise (pot) to 2100 UTG 6 handed with 4c Ts As Ac. Big stack semi-loose UTG+1 calls.
Flop: Kc 6c 4s I bet the pot leaving me with 1450, and he folds.

Hand #131: final table, I have average stack, and there are two big stacks (semi-loose and another loose aggressive player). Seems like it's been too few hands to eliminate 7/8 of the field. This is my first table move of the tourney, another unusual feat.

Hand #149: My best (preflop) hand of the tourney, Ah Qc Qh Ac, picks up the blinds (~10% of my stack). It's never worth slowplaying a favorite preflop, is it?

Hand #176: Luck is a good thing.
5 left, I am second smallest stack, blinds are 1000/2000.
I get a free play in the BB with 4c 3c 9h 3s four handed (I have 14550 chips).
Flop: the aphrodisiac 3h 8s 3d. Since cutoff (button folded preflop) is LAG, I check. It gets checked around, not so bad since there is only one card that beats me, and that is if one of them has 88 which they should have bet.
Turn: 4s. I check again, cause one of these guys is going to go for it. Cutoff-1 bets 6000 (pot=8000), cutoff calls, I call.
River: Ah. I probably should bet my last 6550 into this pot of 26000, but I don't, and cutoff rewards me by betting 20000, which I call (duh) and cutoff-1 drops.
LAG has 6c 7c 5s 9s. I am now chip leader.

Hand #178:
I throw away 6000 of my new found chips, it's now very close 21000-32000 for the 4 stacks. (lost one on #177)

Hand #180: Too much gamblin'?
I am now in second position. I think LAG is stealing on the button, so I come over the top in BB with Jh Kd Js 5d, he puts his last 3944 in too. Board is the delicious Jc Tc 3c Jd 8h. His hand was 9s As Qc Kc, so I wasn't comfortable until the turn. My money went in as 54:46 favorite, but he could have had a much better or worse hand. I wasn't gonna bust, but I would have had only 10000 left if I lost. (30000 if I fold the BB).

Hand #184: "
I raise preflop from sb with Jc Ad Js 7c and am called by the bb.
Flop: Jh 5h Qc So I bet and he raises his last 4949 which looks like QQ, but I have to call because there are no sure things, and he has with Ac 6s Ah Qh (should I have folded if he came over the top preflop?). The flush gets there, so stacks are Seat 1: semiloose 30507, me 33095, the guy who just won 45898.

I bust semi-loose with a semi-bluff and a good preflop hand that holds up.

Hand #190: Big swing!
I raise from the button with 6s Qs 8h Qd and he calls.
Flop: Jh 6h 5s is not great, but I think I am ahead, so underbet 10000 (pot is 12000). He raises 10000, I, figuring I am pot committed (do I need to be committed to the asylum?), reraise and he calls his last 11898.
His 7s 4h Js Tc is a 53% favorite, and he gets a 3.
I should be waiting for an edge instead, shouldn't I?

Hand #199: Need some chips.
I get it all in preflop (my raise, his baby reraise, my last few chips) with Tc Jc 9h Qs against his Ts 7s 2d Ah.
(Once again a small (54%) favorite). I win the hand.

Hand #207: Oops!
I make a mistake for no reason I can fathom. After refusing an even 3 way split when I was ahead, I now offer him almost $50 more than chip stacks indicate (2nd + $100 to him). He takes it but we keep playing for pride. I have a decent amount of that at stake because I won the last tournament (also PLO) I played and have never taken two firsts in a row in big fields. (I suppose there could be solace in the fact that I have already cashed the biggest in this event. Maybe this is why I offered the deal.)

I am surprised that the last hand was one with a measurable edge. After calling a preflop raise, he went in on the flop of 6s 6d 8h with 3s 5d 5h Kd and my 66% favorite Ts 9s 8s 7c held up (Ah 2d came).

All general and specific advice/criticism appreciated,
Craig

[Greg (FossilMan)]

[ QUOTE ]
First, some general questions:
What else do you raise with to disguise your AAs?
What are reasonable stealing hands?
Should you try to limp reraise if the stack sizes are right? With what hands?
When do you call a raise/reraise?
What are decent bluffing and semibluffing flops?
When do you call instead of raise with a big draw?
What other questions should I be asking?

[/ QUOTE ]

You’re asking a bunch of tough questions here. I suggest breaking them out each into their own thread. Also, since these questions are divorced from the tourney context, you’ll probably get better answers on the PL/NL forum. However, in general, the biggest factor in all these questions is how deep is the money? And don’t forget, it’s the shorter stack that counts for this answer, not just how big yours is. And, of course, more important than your cards is their cards, and how they’re going to play them. This is hard enough to figure out in H; in O it becomes very difficult, as even when you can put somebody on AA with a high certainty, there’s about no way to figure out their sidecards until a lot of money has gone into the pot postflop.

[ QUOTE ]
I have read Ciaffone/Reuben, are there other books I need?

[/ QUOTE ]

I’m not aware of any other worthwhile books for PLO. To the extent they address it in the McEvoy/Cloutier series, I’d avoid it, as IME they say more that is harmful than is good.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #8: First pot with any of my money in it.
Three large stacks, rest near starting (like me with 1500 before I put in 20 BB)
MP raises to 70, button calls, sb folds, I call with 6s Kh Ah Kc. ?
Flop is Kd 7c 9c, I go for the checkraise, MP bets pot, button calls, my potsized cr takes the pot. ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That’s good, be happy. Draws abound, and there aren’t many safe cards for you on the turn unless they pair the board. Because even if they’re safe in the sense that KKK is still the nuts, they’ll clearly add to the drawout possibilities on the river.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #9: did I set myself up for this?
cutoff and button call, I call out of sb with Ks 7s 5h 7d ugh?, bb checks.
Flop: 7h 9d 3s, I bet pot, bb folds other two call.
Turn: Tc, check, check, pot, call, fold ?
River: 8s, check, check, I lose to Td 4s 6d Ts 's str8 (and am thanking the pokergods that the board didn't pair).

[/ QUOTE ]

Tough spot. This is one reason I prefer to frequently bet less than the pot. If I bet 2/3 of the pot all the time, it won’t tell them where I’m at, and it adds more depth to the play of many hands, with more and bigger decisions on later streets, rather than just early decisions. Not that this strategy would’ve made all that much difference here.

When you get called by two players and a draw comes in, there is a pretty decent chance they’ve got it. Your goal is to either represent the hand, so that they’ll fold if it didn’t actually hit them, or check-and-call with the hope of hitting and getting paid off. This works better if the money is deep, which it typically isn’t in a tourney. Unless the straight is going to pay you off completely on the river, you probably fold here on the turn. Sometimes, when the turn card does hit you (e.g., you’ve got 899J), you need to check-raise.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #11: I don't know what I was thinking
UTG+1 calls, I call in cutoff with Td 9h 3d 8h, button mini-raises, blinds fold, we both call.
Flop: 9d Qs 6d check, check, pot, fold, call thinking he has a big pair? or maybe I liked my double gutshot.
Turn: Ad He bets 250 into 450 pot, I checkraise to 700 thinking I have his 3 aces beat.
River: Qc I check thinking I'm folding, but he checks and my hand wins (he had 7s 7d 5d Ts)
Now I have decent stack of 2630.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I make a flush that is so far from the nuts, I tend to bet out rather than check-raise, as I feel the information is just as good or better, and it costs less. However, there are definitely times to check-raise here, as if he comes back over, you clearly know there is very little chance your 4th nut flush is good.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #116: Semi-bluff or value bet?
I raise (pot) to 2100 UTG 6 handed with 4c Ts As Ac. Big stack semi-loose UTG+1 calls.
Flop: Kc 6c 4s I bet the pot leaving me with 1450, and he folds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Standard play. You’re either ahead or can’t be all that far behind. But this is Omaha, and any free card can kill you.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #149: My best (preflop) hand of the tourney, Ah Qc Qh Ac, picks up the blinds (~10% of my stack). It's never worth slowplaying a favorite preflop, is it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much never, especially with the blinds so big. If you all had 100-500x the BB, then you could limp in to disguise your hand, as you could crush somebody with QQxy on a flop like AQ7. Here, the amount of extra money you can win postflop is too small compared to the 10% of your stack you can win right now. This is a hand I would tend to show after they all fold, as it will reinforce their ability to fold to my preflop raises.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #180: Too much gamblin'?
I am now in second position. I think LAG is stealing on the button, so I come over the top in BB with Jh Kd Js 5d, he puts his last 3944 in too. Board is the delicious Jc Tc 3c Jd 8h. His hand was 9s As Qc Kc, so I wasn't comfortable until the turn. My money went in as 54:46 favorite, but he could have had a much better or worse hand. I wasn't gonna bust, but I would have had only 10000 left if I lost. (30000 if I fold the BB).

[/ QUOTE ]

It’s generally hard to get people to fold preflop after they’ve put in 1/4 of their money, or more. In Holdem they might, because they know they could be a huge dog, but it’s very rare for any matchup in Omaha to be worse than 3:2. So, if I put in 1 portion, and it’s now 3 portions to win 5, I can actually call with almost any four cards.

That doesn’t mean you should’ve raised, but you either should have felt you’re quite likely to have the best hand, or felt it was quite likely he would fold rather than risk going broke. And with your hand, it’s pretty hard to intelligently believe you’re the favorite preflop. Your hand is probably above average, but not by much.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand #190: Big swing!
I raise from the button with 6s Qs 8h Qd and he calls.
Flop: Jh 6h 5s is not great, but I think I am ahead, so underbet 10000 (pot is 12000). He raises 10000, I, figuring I am pot committed (do I need to be committed to the asylum?), reraise and he calls his last 11898.
His 7s 4h Js Tc is a 53% favorite, and he gets a 3.
I should be waiting for an edge instead, shouldn't I?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your raise from the button seems pretty automatic to me. Same for your bet with an overpair after he checks. There was a decent chance he’d fold to this bet, I am guessing. If that’s the case, you must bet. Once you get that far, you are, unfortunately, potstuck. This is why Omaha is a game for deep money, not shallow, as it takes lots of events before you can put people on hands.

Overall, it seems you did just fine. Congrats.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)