Collusion Detected - Question

[TomCollins]

Are you serious?

Because when one of them hits a hand, he makes about 4x as much as when you hit a hand, because he has help jacking up the pot.

[Jim Kuhn]

I disagree. I think I had the best hand and was pushed off of the pot by a raise and reraise. It cost me $367.

[GrannyMae]

jim,

you know i have great repect for you as a player and person. i say this because sometimes things that seem obvious are sometimes not at all what they appear.

i don't know if you have followed the below thread, but i was 100% sure that collusion had happened at stars during a wsop qualifier, based on the original poster.

then yesterday, lee jones posted this response, and i was suprised that the obvious turned out not to be the obvious.

i find the entire thread amazing, and think that the stars people did the right thing by not buckling to public pressure, and insist on a thorough investigation. i'm not sure i have EVER seen or heard of an investigation that went to this depth, and stars and lee need to be commended.

look at the whole thread. again, it is entirely possible that these guys at pacific WERE colluding, as i have caught a few teams as well. this is just an example of how things that are obvious may not be so obvious.

take care friend



very long, but worth the read: lee's response/decision is #71 in the thread
rgp cross post titled "Will Pokerstars Drop the ball again?"

[Rushmore]

I think it is just the second hand which might detract, as it did not involve the patented bet/no-call on the river between the two colluders.

The first looks like they just got in over their heads, with the remaining colluder making the error of trying to buy the pot on the end, as opposed to the more prudent check-fold to what looks like an inevitable bet on the end.

The third is the poster child for bad collusion, but certainly looks like collusion nonetheless, especially given their reactions to your chat.

To be honest, I think the whole thing is getting out of hand, and am really scaling back my online play hours. I believe the sites have about a 50% chance of eventually ensuring the integrity of their games against collusion, etc., as their incentive and motivation in this regard is in conflict with the players'.

Until then, I think I'll just sit on my winnings, for the most part.

[Jim Kuhn]

The following is what I sent to Pacific Poker. Hopefully, they will find these two colluded, confiscate their funds, return my $367, and bar them from the site. The email I sent was slightly different as I placed hand three first, utilized real user names, etc. The $367 certainly will not break me but if I was cheated out of it I would like it back!



The following situation happened on Pacific Poker last night. The two players in question sat down within five minutes of each other. Also Colluder 1 sat down in a seat, left the table and colluder 2 sat in that same seat before a hand was played.

Several times colluder 1 would bet and colluder 2 would raise. They would also have colluder 1 check, colluder 2 bet and when it came around colluder 1 would (check)raise. The hand where I 'caught' them is outlined below. I immediately said 'that was not right. I think you two are colluding'. Colluder 1 immediately left the table even though the blinds were not on him. Colluder 2 sat out. I told the rest of the table 'these two have been colluding'. I left the table to view the history replayer. Sorry this is not easier to view or explain.

Hand 1916954993

Colluder 2 sits down and posts behind the button. Blinds call and first two players call, colluder 1 calls and player between colluders calls. Colluder 2 checks.

Flop Q 4 4
both blinds check and both ep players check. Colluder 1 bets, between calls and colluder 2 raises. Colluder 1 reraises. They are trying to move between off of the pot. Between and colluder 2 calls.

Turn Q
Colluder 1 bets between calls and colluder 2 gives up as it is clear between is committed to this pot.

River 7
Colluder 1 bets as a last ditch effort to buy this pot. Between calls.

Between J 4 Flopped trip 4's made full house
colluder 1 10 2 Nothing but a failed attempt to collude and steal a pot.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

hand 1916955879

colluder 1 calls utg, between calls and colluder 2 calls, the button and both blinds call.

Flop 9 9 5
Both blinds check, colluder 1 bets, between folds and colluder 2 raises. All fold to leave the colluders heads up.

Turn 10
1 checks 2 bets and 1 calls

River A
1 bets 2 raises 1 calls
colluder 2 catches an ace on the river to make Aces. He reraised colluder 1 with nothing. Colluder 1 mucks but could not beat aces. He bet acting like he had trip nines on the flop, colluder 2 raised acting like he also had trip nines. They were successful at running all of the other players out of the pot.
---------------------------------------------------------------------

hand 1916956520

utg calls, colluder 1 calls, between folds, colluder 2 calls, I call with A J , button calls along with both blinds.

Flop A K 9
utg bets, colluder 1 calls, colluder 2 calls, I raise, button calls, blinds fold, both colluders call.

Turn 7
Check to me and I bet, button folds, utg calls along with both colluders.

River 2
Check to colluder 2 and he bets, I call, utg folds, colluder 1 (check)raises, colluder 2 reraises, I fold. Colluder 1 folds. Colluder 1 checkraises and folds for one more bet with $367 in the pot. He was not bluff checkraising with a bettor and me calling. He may have been bluffing if he bet out.


Please review the above as well as the history of these two players. How often they play together, betting patterns, etc. Please block their accounts as soon as possible. I would appreciate it if you would confiscate their funds, place the $367 they colluded from me back in my account and bar them from playing at your site. The rest of their funds you may keep, give back to the players or charity, etc. I know game integrity is your primary concern. Your site has been my primary site over the past 18 months to 2 years. I have referred you to many people in person and via the pokerforums listed below.

I have/am posting these same details on several online poker forums. Among them are twoplustwo.com, casinomeister.com, thepokerforum.com, pokerpages.com, unitedpokerforum.com and onlinepokerreview.com. I will post on others as time and research allows. I would like to reply to my posts that you have taken the steps to remove your site of colluders and rightfully compensated those colluded against. Please let me know when your research is complete. Thank you for your help and timely response.

Thank you,

Jim Kuhn
Catfish4U
[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
hand 1916956520

utg calls, colluder 1 calls, between folds, colluder 2 calls, I call with A J , button calls along with both blinds.

Flop A K 9
utg bets, colluder 1 calls, colluder 2 calls, I raise, button calls, blinds fold, both colluders call.

Turn 7
Check to me and I bet, button folds, utg calls along with both colluders.

River 2
Check to colluder 2 and he bets, I call, utg folds, colluder 1 (check)raises, colluder 2 reraises, I fold. Colluder 1 folds. Colluder 1 checkraises and folds for one more bet with $367 in the pot. He was not bluff checkraising with a bettor and me calling. He may have been bluffing if he bet out.

I immediately said 'that was not right. I think you two are colluding'. Colluder 1 immediately left the table even though the blinds were not on him. Colluder 2 sat out.

What are everyones thoughts on this situation? They even acted guilty when I accused them of colluding. I think they were colluding but were also at times trying to play normal. These three hands were chosen out of a grand total of twenty hands total they played. There were also others where they appeared to 'be playing together'. I will write Pacific on the above situation.


[/ QUOTE ]

Jim,

I was at the table when this happened. I had just sat down and remember it specifically as I couldn't imagine what you layed down here. I then noticed that you said something and thought it real strange that one of those players ran off and the other froze in his tracks, sitting out. He may have played one or two hands until he read the chat box, I believe.

Unfortunately, it was the only hand I witnessed as I was waiting for my blinds and I believe and wasn't paying 100% attention.

Looking over these hand histories, I agree with you.

I'll keep an eye out for these players in the future.

Peace,
Joe Tall

PS: AJs, raise preflop. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[RaDiCaLReeD]

Could someone outline basic things to look for from colluding?

[Jim Kuhn]

Watch for people sitting down and leaving at the same time. When two persons are always in the pot together. They raise and reraise back to back to lose the rest of the field. They check raise and have their partner bet with powerful hands to maximize the pot.

Colluders are often difficult to catch. I noted this one hand and reviewed the history. They had several suspect hands even though they were only at the table for about 30 minutes together. Support should be able to review all of their play together. Many times colluders are so bad that they both actually lose money. They do cause alot of disruption to the game with their erratic play.

[RaDiCaLReeD]

someone needs to design a collusion alert plugin for PT.

[Elizabeth-Anne]

Don't worry about posting user names.

TaintedJack/MS Sunshine has no qualms about posting a list of names of certain winning NLHE Party players, even though he gets upset when someone else posts his name.


Nice hypocrite.