I missed.... but should I call?

[SGS]

I have Q8ss in the CO of a 15/30 game at party. I limp behind two other limpers. Button comes along and both the blinds.

FLOP k,5,3 two spades

2nd limper bets out, I call, button and SB come along as well.

TURN Qo

First limper bets again and this time I am the only caller.

RIVER 5o

Limper bets, call or fold?

SGS

[lil feller]

If you're going to call the river, you should raise the turn and check behind if you miss. River decision rests greatly on the type of player, but most Kings aren't openlimping, i'd probably call.

lf

1) Play this hand only on the button if you really want to play it.

2)Flop's fine

3) Turn's fine; you want to give the other two players the chance to buffer you pot odds by overcalling, not driving them out with a raise and opening yourself up to a reraise.

4) You're getting 8:1 on your money. It's worth a call; he might have been betting a flush draw or something like JJ or TT although it's unlikely.

[Alex/Mugaaz]

I almost always raise the turn here. You don't lose anymore if you're behind unless he is real real agro, you get more in if you're ahead, you don't have to pay off river value bets. If you hit on the river you also get in an extra bet overall if he would of checked to you or not called a river raise. It makes the hand really easy to play to, which is always nice. The way you played it I don't think you're good here 1 in 8 if he is value betting the river and is even reasonably solid.

[W. Deranged]

The decision between calling and raising the turn depends on how often we think our Q will hold up and how often we think we'll be three-bet.

If we're unlikely to get three-bet and think we're good often enough that we'd consider calling a river bet, raising the turn is better.

If we're almost never ahead here, obviously we'd prefer to just call and fold unimproved.

In general, the only time I particularly like calling down both streets is in a situation where the bettor is very aggro. and I'm likely to get three-bet a lot of the time.

[lil feller]

"The decision between calling and raising the turn depends on how often we think our Q will hold up and how often we think we'll be three-bet."

This is very well said, and something I assumed would be assumed in my response. If we don't plan on calling the river, just call the turn. In this situation, however, I think that the likelyhood of being 3bet really doesn't matter all that much, as Hero has plenty of outs to fall back on. Even the most aggro opponents aren't going to 3bet the turn with a hand worse than hero's, and he can call (correctly) and safely fold the river UI. I think the double call is better used in a spot where we are both likely to get 3bet, and don't have any real outs to rely on if we do.

thoughts?

lf

[stigmata]

First of all: Fold preflop.


[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to call the river, you should raise the turn and check behind if you miss. River decision rests greatly on the type of player, but most Kings aren't openlimping, i'd probably call.

lf

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with raising the turn is that we are only going to fold those hands that we beat anyhow -- like 88 having a stab at the pot, etc. We also open ourselves up to getting 3-bet by a better hand (KQo etc). Therefore, when raising the turn (i'm including his turn bet below):

When ahead: gain 1 bets
When behind: lose 2 bets
When really behind: lose 3 bets
When hit draw: Gain 3 bets (usually)

Compare this with just calling turn/river:

When ahead: Gain 1-2 extra bets (he may check-fold river)
When behind: Lose 2 bets
When really behind: Lose 2 bets
When hit draw: Get 3 bets usually (e.g. river raise)

Just calling has the added bonus of getting to see a showdown, and we get the equity of possible overcalls on the turn. Therefore I prefer just to call the turn in this spot, although I do believe it's pretty close.

Should we call the river? A read would help!!! Against an unknown i think it's probably just about a fold, but I probably end up calling anyhow....