$60k in 60 Days -- Days 4 & 5

[Schneids]

Day Four (May 16, 2004) -- 05.17.04, 13:25

Today is probably going to be a longer journal entry than normal...

Emotional Roller Coaster

This journey is going to be a lot tougher to succeed at if things don't change at all around the house. My parents and I had just finished up eating dinner when my Mom said to me, "Mike, you need to find a real job." I am going to condense this conversation down a lot, but the gist of what she had to say was that when other co-walkers talk about what their children are doing for Summer jobs, she feels shamed saying her son sits at home playing Internet poker. She says she's afraid my 'luck will run out and I'll lose all my money.' She is afraid that not having a job this Summer and playing a lot of poker online will make me lose my ambition to do well at other things in life and turn me into a recluse hermit that makes poker playing his only daily drive. She also believes that if I am winning a lot of money that must mean I am "taking the food out of the mouths of many children who have gambling addicted fathers."

I can understand all of this. I really can. I've known her all my life and know she's a conservative woman. I love her to death, yet, I am struggling to understand why she cannot simply be happy for me that I get to spend some hours of my day doing something I really enjoy doing while also making a lot of money doing so. I also wish she would simply care less about what other people think, so that if anyone gave a snide remark to her son's poker hobby she could either just turn her head the other way, say "I'm proud of him," or even take the more a-holeish route and ask "is your child earning thousands of dollars doing something they love?"

I know part of the problem is that she refuses to learn or understand the game. She still thinks my winning is due in large part to luck. I've tried explaining some of the math and logic and giving her a variety of explanations about why there is a skill element to this game, whilst not denying to her that in the short term there is plenty of luck involved. It's just too hard speaking to deaf ears though. In the past my dad has sat down behind me and watched me play online, and has sometimes asked questions about why I did something. In particular I remember one time I folded 44 UTG and he questioned, "what?!? You folded a pair?" to which I gave him a brief synopsis of why position is important and the fact that I didn't know how many people would enter the pot and if more than a couple people entered the pot, the only way I would win with my fours was if one of the two remaining in the deck happened to fall on the flop, and that the chances of that happening are too slim to warrant playing with it. I think that his openness to at least try to understand why I'm winning has helped him in accepting that I'm probably not doing well solely due to luck.

So then, it sounds like I will be looking for a part time job to which offers as little hours as possible. I think this will be the best way to appease my mom, while still providing plenty of time to play poker - but it might mean I will no longer be doing much volunteer work. I don't foresee that much extra time being available between a job, poker, and a social life.

This story wouldn't be complete without further drama thanks to my spastic and irrational behavior. After finishing this dinner conversation (to which I would say I behaved extremely calmly; it was almost surreal. My mom and I have a frequent history of arguing about poker -- probably every couple of months), I was quite shaken up. So much so, in fact, that due to frustration that these poker talks just never seem to go away like an endless, repeated cycle, and due to not feeling happy about her implying my poker playing brings her shame, that on a whim I withdrew all $12,000+ in my Empire account. I have a lot of Greek in me, as does my mother. My dad is right when he says we are both extremely stubborn when it comes down to something we believe in, and usually go to extremes to try to make our points. Anyway, at this point in time, I was just feeling too overwhelmed with emotions -- enough that I was considering being done with this quest, and being done with poker until I am living on my own.

However, I wouldn't be writing this still if I hadn't changed my mind. A couple of hours later, I realized what I had done, and tried to find out if there was any way I could cancel my withdrawals. I called support and asked, but, unlucky me, I couldn't. And the maximum I can deposit per day is extremely small. So, here I was, with a poker goal to try to keep pace with and no way to get enough money into my account to four-table. I made a $5,000 deposit, which should finally show up in the account within a week.

After much drama and trying to find a way to get money back into my account for an hour or two, NLSoldier came to the rescue. He called support and had his maximum inter account transfer changed to $2000, and transferred me that (I am much in debt to him!). I demanded one person I've bankrolled to transfer me $400, since it won't effect his playing anyway. And another friend heard about my dilemma and instantly transferred me $500 more. I was able to get $300 of my own dollars in immediately via debit. So, through luck and much tribulation, I got my Empire account back up to $3200 and with at least enough to sit on 4-tables and have a little extra money to add to my stacks if they get short. Obviously, as soon as my $5000 deposit makes it into my account these people will be paid back immediately.

My friend that I have staked was a real dick about it too. I suppose it's humorous in retrospect, but at the time it did frustrate me. At first, he refused to send me the $400. "No, you didn't stand up for what you believe in well enough. I teach you a lesson." And then more nagging by me and complaining to him about wishing my mom would just accept that I enjoy poker and be happy. So then he took a new approach. "I'll transfer you the money if you go tell your mom you think you like guys. See if she'll accept that any better than your poker playing." Ah, we're such juveniles. Alas, I did get the money from him. Also, someday in the future I'm going to tutor Nick Lachey's brother at poker and through him I will meet Jessica Simpson and she'll dump that loser Nick for me. This is my true ambition in life.

Finally, Some Poker

Not much to say today. I played for an hour and a half, and lost $237.50 before taking a break to do all of the following: sweat James282 in a tourney, start a heads up play-money match against Demian before asking to postpone it due to a laggy computer, briefly sweat NateThaGreat playing 30/60 along with James282, in which after he won a pot we both typed some : D and : ) ) smileys into the chat box (good times!), and then talked with James more and told him I couldn't find any good tables (it was 3am central time, early Monday morning...not a great time for games). He started playing, and within a few minutes the following conversation occurred:

James: "mmmm 4 people just called on the river"
James: "and Q4o took it down with one pair"
James: "i think i'm gonna like it here"
Me: "man maybe i should try looking harder for a few good tables"
James: "if you wanna be a pro you gotta!"

This inspired me to look harder, and I did find a few reasonable tables. I won $166.50 playing for another hour or so, and then decided to call it a night. I had a few interesting hands occur, one of which I've also posted in the heads up/shorthanded forum: UTG+1, CO, and button all limp, SB raises, I call in my BB with Ts8s, all call to button who raises (button limp-reraise!), and all call. 4JhTh flop; SB checks, I bet, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, button calls, SB calls. Turn 7s, and the same action as the flop occurred. River 3h. Ok, now I'm confused and don't have a plan. Maybe that's a reason for not betting both the flop and turn, if I don't know what I'm going to do when I get called in multiple spots. Most of the time when I'm confused I bet. This time I checked. It got checked around, and my hand was good. The button had 3d5h. The closest hand to my tens was A7 and the turned pair of sevens. The third caller had A8.

It's hard to win when you play 3 hours in a day and have AA lose the only time you get it, KK lose twice, lose on an A766x board with 77 to 66, or have 62 in your BB, see a 345 flop, cap it with an UTG limper, turn 4, river 4 and check fold the river and see the guy show the table his quads with 64 sooted.

Anyway, yesterday was a bittersweet day, but I'm ready to get started and put in some major hours this week. I've been skimping on the hours so far but now that's going to change soon, I hope -- especially since two 2+2ers are sending me PMs with updates on their progress since they are racing me. I think those two should come forward and show their progress in my posts... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Total for Day 4: -$71
Goal to date after 4 days: $4,318/$60,000


Day Five (May 17, 2004) -- 05.18.04, 04:25

I will make up for yesterday's long journal by having a short one today, mainly because I have arrived back at home late tonight, feeling **exhausted** from a party I attended.

First, let me just say that the best way for a good table to get ruined is by having one 2+2er get seated immediately to your left, and soon after, another immediately to your right. Even with the other three players being clowns, it is hard to operate being sandwiched between two good players. Ahem. Cough. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

After more closely examining the types of hands I've posted so far, the majority have been ones where either I simply win big pots with the best hands, or I get sucked out on. Therefore, today is time to talk about a few I blew.

In one hand, UTG limps, the button limps, SB folds, and I raise with JhJs from my BB. Flop of 4dQdQc; I bet, both call. Turn 5s; I bet, UTG raises, button calls, and I fold. River Tc; bet, call. UTG has Ad8d and button has As3d. I had played with UTG enough to make a judgment that I didn't think he'd raise on the turn with anything but a queen. I learned my lesson and admit to having been thoroughly outplayed that hand!

Another hand where I goofed... I think I can get by blaming my error on 4-tabling, however. In the hand, it was folded around to the SB who completed. I raised from the BB with AcTs, and SB called. Flop Th3hTc; check, bet, call. Turn 9d; check, bet, raise, reraise, fold. I hate my re-raise on the turn, and here's why: SB had $33 in chips left. If I call on the turn, he almost always follows through on the river, no matter what he has. By reraising the turn I tell him I really have a hand and he'll save his remaining money with anything but a reasonable hand.

So anyway, I played for an hour and fifteen minutes during the afternoon and finished that session up $1018, and then played another hour after dinner and finished up $168. In the second session, I was able to recover from a quick $500 downswing, and feel very fortunate to have finished the session up before leaving to party.

Tomorrow I plan on providing a few more afterthoughts to the dilemma that came up around my house yesterday.


Total for Day 5: $1186
Goal to date after 5 days: $5504/$60,000

[Schneids]

I see that after posting this one, days 2 & 3 are still near the top of the forum... Is this bi-daily posting going to become an issue of clogging up the forum too much?

[lacky]

There comes a time in every life where you have to move out on your own and be your own person. At 20 (or whatever age you are) it’s hard to see when that time is. From my 37-year-old perspective it’s pretty obvious you have reached that point. You can’t let your parents make your decisions anymore. You have to establish that now and firmly or it doesn’t ever end. Your mom will try to pick your job, your wife, basically your life. Breaking away is never easy and there can be some hard feelings, but they will still love you and you them. My mom isn’t crazy about my playing poker for a living, but I have my own house and my own family, she doesn’t have any control over it, so she doesn’t say much. You need to take a bit of the money and get an apartment. After you move out, when it comes up at dinner again politely say “I just came over to enjoy some time with you guys, lets not argue” and change the topic. If that doesn’t work don’t go over for awhile. You can train parents pretty quick, because once you move out you have all the control. Taking a crap job 10 hours a week won’t fix the problem. Moving out will and it is cheaper. Good luck man, we’ve all been there.

Steve

[rtrombone]

Keep posting. The fact that your prior posts are still near the top of the list indicates that lots of people are reading them and (probably) want to read more. They're great for people like me who have very little time to play...

As for your mom, I suspect she will never understand the game, nor approve. Unless you win a mil in a tournament or put together multiple six-figure years. It's weird, when my parents kept telling me to stop playing poker I attributed it to their ignorance (my dad thinks O.J. is innocent). But then I discovered that some of my friends think about poker the same way--it's all luck, and you can't actually sustain any kind of success. It shocked me because these are smart, educated people--doctors, lawyers, engineers. I don't think it's a matter of intelligence so much as of close-mindedness. The people I'm talking about tend to be more conservative; they play the $5 tables in Vegas, if at all. But there it is.

Why don't you get your own place for the summer? It's not worth the grief. Doesn't living with your parents cramp your style?

You can do a lot better than Jessica Simpson.

[davidross]

I'm glad to see you're still on target.

I'm sure you know there isn't any easy way to make someone change their mind about something like this. I know Phil Hellmuth was practically disowned when he made the decision to drop school and play, until he won a world championship.

My mother called yesterday about my trip to Vegas and told me she was worried about someone hitting me over the head to take my money while I'm there. THere really isn't much you can do about that, but of course while you're living at home you will have to manage it as best you can. I hope you two can find some kind of middle ground where you can both respect each others views.

[MicroBob]

this is kind of similar to the previous 'chicks and poker' thread where so many here were having a difficult time with their wives/GF's or even potential GF's due to the stereo-types surrounding poker.

and, lets face it, for most players these stereotypes are right on the money. and without these stereotyped 'gamblers' it would be a lot tougher on the rest of us to make a living at this.


i'm 33 but i still didnt want to play full-time without some amount of approval from the parentals. i would have done it anyway....but it's nice to have the support.

my mom has no clue what i'm doing for the most part but i explain that i NEVER play craps, roulette, slots or even the lottery because it's just wasted money.
i also talk about things like my poker-statistics database where i can analyze the last 70k hands i have played and all of my opponents statistics from those 70k hands. i explain that this kind of database is available to anyone but most players dont care about studying such details and are just there to gamble.

it shows that, on the average, i am making X-amount per hand. i think this is the best way to explain it to outsiders.
instead of 2.5BB/100 at 2/4...i just say, 10-cents per hand and i can play about 10k hands per week for $1000. obviously your numbers are just a little bit higher than mine [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

i also explain that it obviously fluctuates and some weeks i only make 4-cents a hand and other times i make 19-cents...etc etc.

if you report your short-term results to your mom then there is a good chance she won't understand as easily that losses are okay and are a part of natural variance.
however, if your win-rate is $x.xx per hour over the past X hours....or you are continuing to win $x/hd that may work better. dont say 'i lost $500 today' instead you can say 'my win-rate for the summer fell to $0.65 per hand today but i've still made $5000 in the past 4 days' or whatever.
in other words, you may have to do a little deceiving just to keep everyone happy...but i truly believe this is merely a way of helping her understand how successful you are at this even during your losing days.


i also explain: for every hand, i just let the idiots play against each other with the bad cards and i jump into the hand if i have good cards. they are playing 40% of their hands and i only play 20% of mine so when i play i do so only because i have a better chance of winning.
this is an obvious simlification and a bit inaccurate but it might be a decent angle to take when the conversation comes up again.

i also mention all the studying involved and 2+2 message-boards which i have described as a bunch of math-smarty-pants types analyzing the various types of situations that come up in all kinds of different poker hands.

the site is run by a couple of MIT game-theory types (feel free to mention John Nash at this point if you want) and many of the posters are pretty sharp at math and some are in grad-school in mathematics or statistics, etc and that is where many of the conversations are steered.


just some general ideas.....perhaps i'm exaggerating a little bit...but i think it helps outsiders understand how something like this really CAN work.

in the end...when i was visiting my mom and brought my laptop and showed her a couple hands her comment was 'wow...i didn't know it was so colorful'.


the whole bit about your mom not being able to tell friends what you're doing this summer is unfortunate. although you could suggest to her that she could say that you are working from home or on computers or something. kind of a lame alternative i suppose.

there's little you can do about it overall except hope that this summer turns out well (between you and your mom).
if i had a 20-year-old kid i'm not sure i would want him to be spending a whole summer indoors 'gambling' on the internet either. and this is coming from someone who understands that it truly is possible to beat these games.

be patient and understanding and perhaps she will come around a bit.

my dad is actually kind of bragging about his poker-playing son a little bit which really caught me by surprise.

[Vazh]

Keep posting. It alleviates the davidross withdrawal.

Go Wolves!

[surfdoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, someday in the future I'm going to tutor Nick Lachey's brother at poker and through him I will meet Jessica Simpson and she'll dump that loser Nick for me. This is my true ambition in life.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hot...yes. Smart...no. Have you heard her speak? Try explaining to her why you folded 44 UTG. That could take a few years. Good luck, keep posting.

[snowbank]

Do your parents know exactly how much you make??? If they don't, my advice is to wait until you have enough to cash out about $25,000. At that point, invest in a briefcase. Fill the briefcase with money. Sit down for a little talk with the 'rents, with the briefcase as the guest speaker. Tell them you have been doing pretty well playing online so far this summer and show them what's inside the briefcase. Then tell them what's inside the briefcase is only from about 3 weeks of work. I think they may come around. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[astroglide]

you could just post it all in one thread