Another "do you gamble" spot

[pooh74]

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The problem here is that small medium pairs lose value multiway. I fold.

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i have the same vague intuition, but i can't really put my finger on what it means. can you elaborate?

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I dont think the above is correct...I mean, it is correct, but not as stated. All hands lose value multiway...the more players in, the less value any one hand has.

I am not sure however if a hand's intrinsic value (against 1 random hand) is lower, it loses even more value multiway?

IOW, if x hand is 60% against a random 2 cards lets say it loses y value with 2 others in the pot.

Then does a hand that is 50% aginst any random 2 lose y+n value? Meaning does it even lose more? Or is it a constant?

Im sure this is easy to figure out, but I don't think small medium pairs have something special that makes them any worse in this regard.

[Irieguy]

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The problem here is that small medium pairs lose value multiway. I fold.

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i have the same vague intuition, but i can't really put my finger on what it means. can you elaborate?

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All hands lose value multiway.

This is a concept in poker that is frequently misunderstood, and ubiquitously misapplied.

There are several ways to rank hands: K-S, Eastbay's Pushers, S-M groups, and various mathematical models. No matter how you do it, you will be less likely to win a pot as you increase the number of opponents. The value of some hands decreases more dramatically as you add opponents than other hands.

For example: AA is the best hand whether you have one opponent or 100. AKo, on the other hand, is a top 5% holding shorthanded, but drops down significantly as you add more than 4 opponents.

What Durron is referring to is that 77 does relatively more poorly against multiple opponents than it does against few opponents. So, in a way, it "loses value" multiway. What it really does, though, is lose more value than a hand like T-Js would as you add opponents.

The way that this concept is misapplied is this: lots of players like to play TJ in a multiway pot because they think it "plays so well multiway." But if they have QQ they will consider folding to two raises in front of them.

None of these concepts matter at all in SNG poker, really. They are very important in limit hold'em ring games where pot odds and your win rate are intimately linked.

Irieguy

[durron597]

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i have the same vague intuition, but i can't really put my finger on what it means. can you elaborate?

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Hm. First I did this:

pokenum -h ac ks - qh jd - 7d 7c
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 517586 37.76 850153 62.02 3015 0.22 0.378
Jd Qh 414899 30.27 952840 69.51 3015 0.22 0.303
7c 7d 435254 31.75 932485 68.03 3015 0.22 0.318

But then I tried changing the hands around for kicks; same suits:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1122929
pokenum -h ac qs - kh jd - 7d 7c
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Ac 487784 35.59 879955 64.19 3015 0.22 0.357
Jd Kh 426221 31.09 941518 68.69 3015 0.22 0.312
7c 7d 453734 33.10 914005 66.68 3015 0.22 0.332

BD flush draw for the pair:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1122930
pokenum -h ac qs - kh jc - 7d 7c
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Ac 482714 35.22 885013 64.56 3027 0.22 0.353
Jc Kh 414328 30.23 953399 69.55 3027 0.22 0.303
7c 7d 470685 34.34 897042 65.44 3027 0.22 0.344

One guy is dominated:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1122932
pokenum -h ac ks - kh jc - 7d 7h
Holdem Hi: 1370754 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ks Ac 459738 33.54 898093 65.52 12923 0.94 0.340
Jc Kh 282820 20.63 1075011 78.42 12923 0.94 0.211
7d 7h 615273 44.89 751846 54.85 3635 0.27 0.450

But then you also have to think about when you are against an overpair and an underpair. I think this is a call though; gambling for big stacks is goot.

[Afterh0urs]

To me, there isn't enough information here. I need to know how tight the other players (everyone but the shortstacks) are in regards to calling allins. If they're tight, I'm calling here and taking a chance to add 1200 chips to my stack. If I lose, I lose 630 chips, 225 of which I can get back next hand when I open push, assuming the players are tight.

If the players are loose and I'm unable to get away with push stealing at will, I fold and conserve my chips until I find my spot and catch someone in their looseness.

[psyduck]

This seems to be a very easy fold. What's the problem here?

Edit: oh didn't realize that hero posted the BB. still think it's a fold though...