Drawing hand played AI on flop,vs a crowd, big pot

[DavidC]

Paradise $2 NL, 9 handed.
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Hero is SB with KQs, with four-flush on flop.

Stacks:
SB: 2.05 (Hero)
BB: 3.29
UTG: 2.62
UTG+1: 2.05
MP1: 1.27
MP2: 4.72
MP3: 2.34
CO: 2.39
B: 1.19

PF: fold, raise to 2xbb, 3 calls, two folds, blinds call, including hero on sb.

*** FLOP *** : [ 8c 3s 6s ] pot = 4xbb*6 = 24xbb = $0.48.
Stacks (approx): 6 players:
Stacks:
SB: 2.05 (Hero)
BB: 3.29
UTG+1: 2.05
MP1: 1.27
MP2: 4.72
MP3: 2.34

Hero checks, check, bet 1xbb, call, raise to 2xbb, raise to 10xbb...

At this point I tried to put some cash in the middle and make it a three- or four-handed pot, to draw ot my flush with.

The pot is: flop+14xbb: $0.76

Hero raises to $0.60, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to 1.30, mp1 calls AI, MP2 calls, hero raises AI to $1.41, others call.

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Okay. What I was trying to do here was get all my cash in on at least break even and the rest was great.

However, I'm not drawing to the nuts: it's possible that someone out here has an A-high flush draw.

What do you guys think of that possibility?

Should I have waited until I hit my flush for the final raise and only called if I absolutely had to? Should I play a flush draw that isn't to the nuts?

--Dave.

[tdomeski]

Okay David.

Raising to .60 on the flop is pretty terrible. Sorry for the honesty. Essentially what you were doing was putting in a big chunk of your stack with zero folding equity. What happens when the turn blanks? Suddenly your odds are terrible and you will be forced to check/fold or check/call a reasonable bet. Unfortunately you are unlikely to be in a situation where you can call a reasonable bet.

Fortunately the action was re opened by someone else and you were able to get your entire stack in. The problem is, not sure on this table, at most tables at this point you are against a set or another made hand where your odds are significantly decreased.

With that said. You should either bet the flop and call any reasonable raise.

Or check raise all in. Don't check raise to .60 and put yourself in a position where you lose all of your odds on the turn. FWIW the turn blanks for you more than it hits.

Here is an old thread that shows another example of what I'm saying: 87 suited from EP

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Raising to .60 on the flop is pretty terrible. Sorry for the honesty

[/ QUOTE ]

No, no, that's perfect; thank you. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I'm not sure what you mean by "zero folding equity"... I think you mean that I'm building a pot that I'm still unable to call the turn with. I'm doing this because I'm a 3:1 shot and I'm thinking that with two callers I'm golden, but you're pointing out that I have to put my whole stack in or my odds go down from the 3:1 shot.

Makes sense to me.

I'm curious as to whether or not I had overcards here, and if I did, whether or not they were good... probably not judging by the flop action.

Those overcards would help me a lot in the turn action. However, still not enough ot save me from even a $1.5 AI bet, which I'm likely to face.

With the possibility of a set out there, how bad are my odds? Is a set the only made hand that I'm afraid of?

I'm still getting into NL, so it's good to see these things happen and hopefully learn from them.

I'm not sure that I could have gotten two callers for my entire stack if I went AI - probably a bunch of callers for part of my stack and then one for my whole stack... a lot of these guys in the pot were short-stacked. It was an ugly spot.

You're right... I was very lucky to get someone to let me AI on the flop. I really needed it to get my odds.

Oh... and one of the guys that called me had A2s, so I was proper shagged the whole way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Is it worth it to go AI with this hand, given that it's not the nuts?

I understand that the turn's unlikely to help me. I'm just not used to playing a draw in NL, yet.

I'm going to read that post right away. Thanks for the link.

--Dave.

[DavidC]

I understand why a set would be bad now:

You're not concerned about his set when you hit your flush... you're concerned about one card being your flush and another being his full.

Does that degrade your edge entirely when you're on a strflush draw heads up on the flop?

I would suppose so since someone said it on that other post.

How much of a dog are you in that case?

--Dave.

[DavidC]

Hmm...

After reading that post...

I would have to say that a call would perhaps be worth it due to the pot, and that if I was going to go for a push it definitely had to be AI. I'd have to know for sure that at least two people were coming with me, though, and I'd have to pray that no one was coming with the ace flush draw.

I'm going to look at one scenario before I pronounce judgement on this though... what if I could build the pot a little bit with a lot of players... how would that affect my ability to call a turn bet AI?

I'll think about this a little and post it... [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[DavidC]

...A call from me when the guy bet 10xbb would let me see how many callers there were.

Given that the pot before any action on hte flop was 2.5x this guy's bet (25xbb), I'm getting almost the right odds to call the turn and see if I improve.

Given that I'll have a bunch of opponents in there, I've got a chance of getting paid if I hit.

I still have the option of an AI play, should someone push behind me.

Obviously, though, it's best just to get the cash in the middle PF if I can.

[DavidC]

(by "everyone" I mean "everyone but the BB", since he checked earlier in the round)

... If everyone calls the little bet I have to fold to a turn bet.

... If eveyrone calls my bigger bet, and everyone calls someone's AI turn bet, I get acceptable odds to call on the turn.

... Scenario #1 isn't horrible, scenario #2 isn't likely (so I'm likely to get screwwed trying #2).

Therefore I've got to choose between calling, folding, and raising all in. I don't think folding is appropriate, given that the other two offer some profit...

Is calling absolutely horrible rather than raising AI?

I was uncomfortable raising AI because I think that I might only get one caller or may get two callers, but was likely to get three (obviously I was wrong.)

I like the idae of calling, since I can always go AI with a bigger pot to back me up if someone raises, or I can fold to a turn bet if I don't hit.

I think that a call, against a crowd where someone will likely pay me on the turn, is a good thing... this might reduce the risk a little bit.

I'm not sure though.

Any comments on calling the 10xbb flop bet instead of raising AI? Please keep in mind that the intention is to AI if someone raises behind me, and to either fold or go AI on the turn.