Let’s take a few minutes on the couch.

[purnell]

The bitterness on this board is an expression of youthful angst, IMO. As has been said before here, most people don't choose their religion, instead it is given to them by their family. That kinda throws the P issue theory out the window.

I want you guys to know that regardless of what I think of your beliefs, I respect and value your right to hold them. I have a problem with fanaticism, not religion. That is why I usually make my "arguments" in the form of a question. I want you to think, because independent thinking (again IMO) is the antidote for fanaticism.

[RJT]

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The bitterness on this board is an expression of youthful angst, IMO. As has been said before here, most people don't choose their religion, instead it is given to them by their family. That kinda throws the P issue theory out the window.

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This makes sense. But, are you also saying that you have witnessed the biterness, too? Just wondering if it is just me or not. Especially, since Lestat doesn't see it and actully see the opposite.

[Lestat]

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The bitterness on this board is an expression of youthful angst, IMO. As has been said before here, most people don't choose their religion, instead it is given to them by their family. That kinda throws the P issue theory out the window.

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This makes sense. But, are you also saying that you have witnessed the biterness, too? Just wondering if it is just me or not. Especially, since Lestat doesn't see it and actully see the opposite.

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I see what I like to think of as tough love from both sides. I'll concede that there are a few individuals who could be a bit more diplomatic (less offensive) in their responses, but they are few and far between.

But I think most of us devout non-believers go out of our way not to offend believers. I'm also impressed that most of the believers go out of your way not to preach. For the most part, this is probably one of the most civil debates on this subject I've ever seen.

Sidenote: I think it's difficult for a non-believer to sound like he's not talking down to a believer, because let's face it... He often feels that he is! I'm not saying that's good or bad, right or wrong, but it's often the case.

[RJT]

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Sidenote: I think it's difficult for a non-believer to sound like he's not talking down to a believer, because let's face it... He often feels that he is!

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Exactly. It is when his feeling is wrong is when it becomes (to use your word) frustrating. I think I'll use my own word instead: amusing.

I thought it might help to list some reasons aetheists (me) might be very frustrated by people treating religion as truth. Only a few off the top of my head, lots more have occured over a lifetime.

1) Using religion as a basis for decision making.

Can you imagin how frustating it is to try to discus something logically with someone who cites a fictional book? I'm not talking about the existence of God, I mean real issues such as politics and morality. This is one reason why I deem it a reasonable use of my time to try to talk people out of religion first.

2) Actually, thinking about it now, I think they are all variants of (1). But any situations where people use religion to get a holiday from work, be fussy with food, claim ownership of a country, etc etc.

Our food in university halls was awful. We got a choice of 2 dishes (and a vegetarian dish). Muslim students got a choice of 5 dishes (the 3 above +2 well prepared halaal curries). Non-muslims were not allowed those choices. So they had more choice and ate better than we did. In England.

That kind of bias throughout life has built up in me a resentment of our cultural acceptance of religious B.S.

[hmkpoker]

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

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I'd say so.

Consider this: Take a smart, healthy young person. There's an awful lot he or she can do with his life. There are some phenomenal pleasures to be experienced, be they athletics, partying, love, art, music, learning, games, etc. etc. etc. There's also a darn lot of personally fulfilling career things someone can experience, and a lot that one person can do to help society, and to help others live a higher quality of life.

Now suppose you were taught from a young age that this amazing experience that we call life DOESN'T MATTER...because afterward you go to some magical world that's infinitely better if you do this one silly thing that takes absolutely no effort and even the most useless person in the world can do, and if you don't do it, you are punished infinitely.

So now, since life doesn't matter, all there is to do is to believe that a dead carpenter came back to life, and maybe try and get some other people to do the same thing.

*believes*

w00t. I believe in a dead carpenter. Wow. I've just accomplished more than I can ever do through hard work, compassion and academic passion.

I think this is a pretty good way to get the losers of society to feel like they've done something worthwhile, and honestly, it's pretty demotivating.

[A_C_Slater]

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

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I'd say so.

Consider this: Take a smart, healthy young person. There's an awful lot he or she can do with his life. There are some phenomenal pleasures to be experienced, be they athletics, partying, love, art, music, learning, games, etc. etc. etc. There's also a darn lot of personally fulfilling career things someone can experience, and a lot that one person can do to help society, and to help others live a higher quality of life.

Now suppose you were taught from a young age that this amazing experience that we call life DOESN'T MATTER...because afterward you go to some magical world that's infinitely better if you do this one silly thing that takes absolutely no effort and even the most useless person in the world can do, and if you don't do it, you are punished infinitely.

So now, since life doesn't matter, all there is to do is to believe that a dead carpenter came back to life, and maybe try and get some other people to do the same thing.

*believes*

w00t. I believe in a dead carpenter. Wow. I've just accomplished more than I can ever do through hard work, compassion and academic passion.

I think this is a pretty good way to get the losers of society to feel like they've done something worthwhile, and honestly, it's pretty demotivating.

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This post is very accurate in describing the "Jesus saves" mentality.

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

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I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.

[RJT]

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

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I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.

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I'll have to do a search. I must be confusing you with another poster. Sorry, no offense was intended in any case. But, I do remember the phrase because it was used on more than one occasion.

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Do folk generally come to their beliefs out of some P need (to feel all warm and fuzzy, as Dr. kidluckee likes to say)

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I honestly don't recall ever once saying that.

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I'll have to do a search. I must be confusing you with another poster. Sorry, no offense was intended in any case. But, I do remember the phrase because it was used on more than one occasion.

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I searched myself and found two references. However, I think your initial characterization is taken out of context. For example, I referred to Jeff V's "warm and fuzzy" feelings leading to faith as a response to his post about his feelings-based rationale for coming to the church. On the second occasion, I referred to such feelings after a poster (actually you, RJT) used "I like the concept of my faith " as part of his rationale (actually listed as #1 but order did not necessarily imply precedence) for belief. In other words, I only cited the "warm and fuzzy" when the poster himself used such feelings as a basis for faith, but I have not implied that all Christians come through faith solely as a need for warm and fuzzy feelings.

Incidentally, you ask why atheists seem "bitter" towards believers. Maybe because of their use of such rationale like your "I like the concept of my faith" as basis for belief, and yet at the same time trying to maintain that they are intellectually honest. Your burden of proof is a terrible double standard, mine is not (I don't let science off the hook for everything because "I like the concept of it"). And it is somewhat frustrating debating with people in a sci/philo forum who are obtusely so intellectually dishonest. I have posted criticisms of many atheist posts which make claims that are not supportable, despite my general agreement with atheists. You and your cronies continually support the faulty logic, the assumptions = conclusions, the double standard of proof, etc. of each other ad nauseum. However, this does not make me bitter or frustrated in actuality. Why? Because I believe your lapses of consistency and logic are obvious to any objective reader and make a great case for an "on the fence" theist to re-examine their views. So, it is not you who will be "converted" by such debate. But exposing your arguments, may inadverently (for you) help others question the grounds of their faith.