Suited connectors <. Non-Suited connectors?

BluffBlank · #1 09-07-2004, 10:44 AM

I've been reading through Cloutier/McEvoy's CNL/PL HE book and came across something I thought was very odd. T.J. says that he prefers non-suited connectors to suited ones. Because suited connectors "can become trap hands".

To me, it seems as thought the EV of suited cards far outweighs the few times you're going to run into someone with suited over cards. But I'm mostly a limit player, so I may be turned around on the subject. Anyone care to explain this to me?

-Bluff

Jon Matthews · #2 09-07-2004, 10:54 AM

The difference is you can lose your whole stack when you make a smaller flush, whereas in limit you just lose a number of bets.

Unsuited connectors are easier to get away from since the least you will go to the felt with is a straight, and it is easier to tell whether you have a trap hand or not by which part of the straight combination you have.

Jon.

BluffBlank · #3 09-07-2004, 11:24 AM

So are you (or other NL/PL players) more likely to call a bunch of limpers or an unraised pot with 5s6d rather then 5s6s? Or do you call with both and throw it away if you make a flush and get a lot of action, fearing suited overcards?

I could understand mucking it if a 4th suited card comes up, since a lone A or K (or JQT89...) makes a higher flush, but it seems like you're throwing away a lot of EV by worrying about over cards with any suited connectors.

Although I can see how most of your money is going to be made by making your straights instead of flushes, since it seems people are far more worried about 3 suited cards on a flop then they are with a straight-ish board. So if your flush is good then perhaps you'll get very little action unless you're beat, whereas with the straight you get a lot of action from overpairs/sets/two pairs?

-Bluff

Unarmed · #4 09-07-2004, 01:04 PM

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Anyone care to explain this to me?

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I think the notion that NSC are superior to SC is completely ridiculous. No one says you HAVE to lose your stack on an underflush. I stayed away from the Cloutier/McEvoy book because most reviewers said it was complete garbage. Maybe thats all the explanation required in this case...

ChrisW · #5 09-07-2004, 01:47 PM

IMO, the value in the suitedness of connectors comes from draws, not made flushes. For example, you might make a fourflush plus either an open-ender or a pair and play it very strongly on the flop. You might win the pot right there with strong play, and you have a lot of outs if called. (With either of the above hands, you're a favorite against TPTK as long as the board hasn't paired on the flop.)

If there are three suited cards already on the board, it will be hard to get much action from anything other than a flush. Thus, a small flush rates to win a smallish pot or lose a big one. To that extent, I believe TJ and McEvoy are correct.

Ionphore · #6 09-07-2004, 01:53 PM

Is it possible TJ just wanted to "be different" and put this in his book. Its pretty obvious the fact connectors are suited makes them more +EV then playing unsuited once. If you weigh all the times you win with a flush or a nice semi bluff it far outweighs the times a flush over flush happens.