30/60 KK out of the small blind

Paluka · #1 03-14-2005, 02:50 PM

Utg raises, he is experience but a little laggy. A player I don't really know but I suspect is also a little laggy 3 bets from late position, and I cap with KK in the small blind. Both call.
Flop comes 235 rainbow. I bet, utg raises, late pos guy calls, I 3 bet, both call.
Turn 4. How do I play this?

James282 · #2 03-14-2005, 02:59 PM

Bet and fold to a raise. Your only real threat of an ace is the late position guy.
-James

rory · #3 03-14-2005, 03:01 PM

I bet and fold if LP guy raises. I would call down but be unhappy about it if UTG raises and LP guy folds. If UTG raises and LP 3 bets or cold calls I would fold. If I got just-called on the turn I would bet the river too.

Paluka · #4 03-14-2005, 03:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet and fold to a raise. Your only real threat of an ace is the late position guy.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with this is the it is pretty obvious that the only way I have an ace is if I have aces. Since I have KK and QQ in this spot more often than aces, it is worth it to the late position guy to raise the turn just to blow me off my hand.

gonores · #5 03-14-2005, 03:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Bet and fold to a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

James282 · #6 03-14-2005, 03:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Bet and fold to a raise. Your only real threat of an ace is the late position guy.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with this is the it is pretty obvious that the only way I have an ace is if I have aces. Since I have KK and QQ in this spot more often than aces, it is worth it to the late position guy to raise the turn just to blow me off my hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're absolutely right, but is he smart enough to do this? Your hand really looks like aces, and he isn't gonna want to get three-bet. A bigger disaster, IMO, is if you check, EP guy bets and the other guy raises. Because then you run into a scenario where UTG bets jacks or tens or something since you've given up, and the late position guy can more justifiably throw in a raise. I dunno. It's definitely a shitty situation, I think bet and fold to a raise has got to be my standard line specifically because I make a fair amount of call downs that appear nefarious to thinking but not great players.
-James

Paluka · #7 03-14-2005, 03:15 PM

Can we agree that if I'm not losing it is because both my opponents have pocket pairs? If that is the case they have only 4 combined outs, and it seems like I'm better off just calling down. I will lose 2 bets to an ace this way, but I will induce some bluffs and I'll never accidently fold a winner.

James282 · #8 03-14-2005, 03:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can we agree that if I'm not losing it is because both my opponents have pocket pairs? If that is the case they have only 4 combined outs, and it seems like I'm better off just calling down. I will lose 2 bets to an ace this way, but I will induce some bluffs and I'll never accidently fold a winner.

[/ QUOTE ]

We can certainly agree that, but it really looks like they both do have pocket pairs. And you may induce bluffs, but I think a more likely scenario is you win less against hands that would've called down, but not necessarily bet. I do see the merits of checking the turn, but I almost think check-calling the turn and check-folding the river is a better line than check-calling both streets. I don't think a non-ace will value bet the river after taking a stab at the turn, specifically because hands like JJ and QQ are often likely to check through the turn because they fear an ace.
-James

astroglide · #9 03-14-2005, 03:29 PM

checking is a big time invite to bluff raise though, i think the odds of it being 2 cold back to you are a lot higher than it being raised back to you if you bet (assuming neither of them have an ace)

URMeowed · #10 03-14-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If that is the case they have only 4 combined outs, and it seems like I'm better off just calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem I have with this is there is a higher probability of one of them having an ace. LAGs love to raise up bare aces and they love even more to three bet bare aces. When you factor in the small percentage of time one of them has 22, 33, 44, 55 and 66, you are not looking too good. No shame in folding the best hand, even with the size of this pot. That said, I would check call one bet and see what rolls off on the river. If it's a blank, I would probably check call one bet again, even if it's an overcall.

Meow.