Anyone checks through the turn here?

steveyz · #1 10-07-2005, 02:25 AM

UTG+1 is 21/14/1.6, UTG+2 is 40/16

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, UTG+2 calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, UTG+2 checks, Hero ???

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I think the turn is a bet, but it does often lead to the unenviable position of calling a turn check-raise and deciding what to do on a blank river.

elmo · #2 10-07-2005, 02:33 AM

I really think you are giving, not taking a free card here most of the time. When you aren't you are nearly always drawing very live. A 40/12 and 21/14 have so many 1-pair/gutshot hands here that I think a check is pretty bad.

And ya, sometimes you get check-raised by AK, don't improve on the river, and have to play poker, and that sucks.

bone77 · #3 10-07-2005, 02:33 AM

so your raise on the flop was for a free card then? or for value? i think you need to have a plan for the turn before you raise the flop.
i think it's a value bet for a couple reasons. first off if UTG+1 had a one pair hand like AK or AA wouldn't he want to make UTG+2 face two cold on the flop? and secondly, and most importantly, you called two cold preflop and hit your hand about as good as you could hope for on the flop, so if you can't bet this flop/turn, why call his raise in the first place?
thoughts?
-tony

Pog0 · #4 10-07-2005, 02:57 AM

I'll bet 100% of the time here. Value bet a river blank if checked to me as well, call down a c/r or 3-bet if UTG+2 plays along.

stigmata · #5 10-07-2005, 05:59 AM

Is this cold call standard? I will do it in a volume pot with KQs etc, but against a UTG1 TAG and one other player?

Easy turn bet, I really think most TAGs are 3-betting the flop with anything that beats you -- its pretty obvious you could be making a free card play, he knows this, and will defend against it with a made hand.

SpaceAce · #6 10-07-2005, 09:06 AM

I'd bet here just about every time. You may already have the best hand and if you don't, you almost certainly have outs to make the best hand. I wouldn't be thrilled to get check-raised here but I wouldn't be weeping onto my chips about it, either.

SpaceAce

TaintedRogue · #7 10-07-2005, 09:24 AM

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I think the turn is a bet, but it does often lead to the unenviable position of calling a turn check-raise and deciding what to do on a blank river.

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Wouldn't this only be the case if you have been labeled as one who will bet J kicker in this type situation, against the previous action and one of the players is aggressive/tricky enough, to ck/raise you on the turn, with either the better hand, or a draw putting you in the precarious situation of determining what he has?
Or, one of the players have a habit of ck/raising bigger kickers and two pair in this type situation? That being the first player to act.
Seems to be a player dependent decision, but I hate giving a free card, however, I can see your concern.

TaintedRogue · #8 10-07-2005, 09:38 AM

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so your raise on the flop was for a free card then? or for value?

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I think he did for both reasons, as well as to gain info.

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i think you need to have a plan for the turn before you raise the flop.

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I believe he did, however, was surpised that it was ck'd to him on the turn, for whatever reason, of which, I believe he will explain later.

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i think it's a value bet for a couple reasons. first off if UTG+1 had a one pair hand like AK or AA wouldn't he want to make UTG+2 face two cold on the flop?

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I would think he would save that move for the turn if the heart doesn't come.

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and secondly, and most importantly, you called two cold preflop and hit your hand about as good as you could hope for on the flop, so if you can't bet this flop/turn, why call his raise in the first place?thoughts?-tony

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Good point. I can only deduce that he feared a fold/fold to his bet on the turn, and, that a check may possibly induce a bet on the river that he can raise.

TaintedRogue · #9 10-07-2005, 09:43 AM

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Is this cold call standard? I will do it in a volume pot with KQs etc, but against a UTG1 TAG and one other player?

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You don't believe UTG's numbers are loose enough to warrant a call? I consider it close, however, if we hit the flop, can we not expect some decent action?

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Easy turn bet, I really think most TAGs are 3-betting the flop with anything that beats you -- its pretty obvious you could be making a free card play, he knows this, and will defend against it with a made hand.

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They don't get tricky enough to try and max their EV and go for a ck/raise on the turn, when the heart doesn't come?

TaintedRogue · #10 10-07-2005, 09:44 AM

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I'd bet here just about every time. You may already have the best hand and if you don't, you almost certainly have outs to make the best hand. I wouldn't be thrilled to get check-raised here but I wouldn't be weeping onto my chips about it, either.

SpaceAce

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Neither would I, and, I would be betting the turn also.