All-in Rule Question

[Vanquish]

[ QUOTE ]
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 15 - Tournaments. 34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete.

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I get it. Everyone at my game gets it. Except one guy doesn't like to show his hand if he is beat- ever. He obeys the rule though, except in one situation, and I'm looking for some help with this. It would be great if there was some actual rule addressing this situation specifically, but there probably isn't, so... help!

Player 1 - 500 chips
Player 2 - 1000 chips
Player 3 - 5000 chips

Pre-Flop:
Player 1 (button) goes all-in
Player 2 (SB) calls
Player 3 (BB) calls

Flop:
Player 1 checks
Player 2 checks

Turn:
Player 1 checks
Player 2 checks

River:
Player 1 checks
Player 2 checks

Players 1 and 2 follow the standard rules for who must show their cards SB must show, then BB only if his hand is the winner.

Then what? Does all-in Player 3 HAVE to show his hand even if it is a loser? The player in my game doesn't show his cards in this situation when his hand is a loser. It seems to me that the spirit of the rule is that any all-in player has to show their cards, but I can't say for sure. Any help?

-This is a tourney situation of course... since the rule is a tourney specific rule. I was a little surprised to find out you didn't have to flip your cards during an all-in in a cash game.

[TenPercenter]

I don't know what the Rule is, but going my my instincts I'd say he doesn't need to show. I know that's not how it's done on TV, but then again, who has hole card cameras at home? On TV, it's for drama. They probably agree to things like that to be allowed in the tourney. Everyone shows in my home games. It's more fun that way. But the guy was the caller, no one "paid" to see his cards, like the saying goes.

Ten

[warewulf]

I agree with Ten: If nobody paid to see his cards because he was the last caller, he should be able to muck. If it was reversed and he was the raiser and others called, he should show. Have rules set in advance for this sort of thing would be a good idea. I would have mixed feeling -- I'd want to see his hand, but would also want him to muck in case he missed something.

[MSPatton]

Robert's Rules

SHOWDOWN
5. Any player who has been dealt in may request to see any hand that has been called, even if the opponent's hand or the winning hand has been mucked. However, this is a privilege that may be revoked if abused. If a player other than the pot winner asks to see a hand that has been folded, that hand is dead. If the winning player asks to see a losing player’s hand, both hands are live, and the best hand wins.
__________________________________________________ _______


Would this not apply?

Of course, he doesn't have to show initially, but he could be asked to
under this rule

[Demana]

Player 3 does not need to show his hand as he is not involved in an all-in pot. Player 1 is all in, but player 2 and player 3 both have chips left. Since there was no betting on the flop, turn, or river, the cards are turned over starting from the left of the dealer. If player 3 is in last position, he can muck his hand without showing. Even player 1, who is all in, does not have to show his hand if player 2 shows a better hand first.

The only time player 3 must show his hand is when he is the first person to the left of the dealer AND no one has bet on the river AND no one has shown their hand. He can still choose to muck at that point, but he cannot wait for others to show before mucking.

I believe that the rule you are quoting is when all players involved in a hand are all in before the river is dealt.

[Big Country]

Betting action is not complete until after the river, or if player 2 or 3 were able to force the other out (or 3 forced 2 all in and was called) with a flop or turn bet.. then the betting action is complete as there is no one left that can bet and only then do all hands have to be turned up.

Checking is a betting action, and since there were live players, once the river was checked through, player 3 can have the option to muck, but, as was stated in a previous post, the rule most applicable is if a player asked to see the hand and it was live at the river, though this is of course considered very rude unless collusion is suspected.

[Fins]

[ QUOTE ]
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 15 - Tournaments. 34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with some of the previous posts...

"All hands will be turned face up whenever A player is all in"<font color="blue">... Player 1 is all in so it's just a matter of when the hands are turned up, not if... </font>"and betting action is complete"... <font color="blue">so after Player 2 checks on the river all hands should be turned face up.</font>

Seems pretty clear to me... how are others interpreting the rule [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

- Fins

[Vanquish]

I'm sorry... there's a typo above. What I want to know is if Player ONE has to show his hand at showdown.

I assume that if 2 and 3 check it down to the river they obey the normal rules for showing, but what I want to know is if Player One has to show even if a better hand has already been shown. Sorry about that... any help again? Thanks!

[Fins]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry... there's a typo above. What I want to know is if Player ONE has to show his hand at showdown.

I assume that if 2 and 3 check it down to the river they obey the normal rules for showing, but what I want to know is if Player One has to show even if a better hand has already been shown. Sorry about that... any help again? Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]
The way I read it is All hands are shown... ALL being everyone that plays to showdown... in your situation all 3 players... all

[ QUOTE ]
Roberts Rules of Poker. Section 15 - Tournaments. 34. All hands will be turned faceup whenever a player is all-in and betting action is complete.

[/ QUOTE ]
Take a tourney with a table with ten players...

• UTG player limps all-in
• The other eight call &amp; BB checks
• Everyone checks the flop, turn &amp; river
• All the hands are displayed face up for everyone to see... all 10 of them

Doubt it'd go down that way at a home game but that's the way I read the rule and not sure how else it could be read.

So yes I would say Player 1 would have to show.

Take your same situation but Player 2 has 500 chips... with the calls pre-flop betting action is complete &amp; all hands are shown... all 3 pre-flop

- Fins

[smoore]

From the rules, it appears that player 1 does indeed have to show his cards. However, on pokerstars if player 1 loses he does not have to show his cards. I guess we need a Tournament Director to answer this one for us.