$1,000 1 table freezeout. What do you do here???

[Double Down]

I never, ever considered folding. LOL My point is that if he has 2 overs and a spade, he is the favorite. If I bet, I KNOW he'll raise me, and I really won't know if I'm ahead or behind.

"I was trying to refrain from saying this: you don't know how to play poker."

I play poker for a living and do very well, thank you.

By the way, I still haven't said what I did.

Just cuz I have him beat at the moment doesn't mean he's not a favorite to win the hand.

[Melchiades]

By your info there is exactly one hand (QJ with a spade) he can have that has you beat, and even then you are only a 47/53 dog. All other hands he has that he will push no matter what(yikes), you either are a favourite againts or have crushed. This makes getting all the chips in not a bad idea. Do you see why?

Some fantastic reads on your part, but you seem unwilling to go with them.

[Double Down]

"By your info there is exactly one hand (QJ with a spade) he can have that has you beat, and even then you are only a 47/53 dog. All other hands he has that he will push no matter what(yikes), you either are a favourite againts or have crushed. This makes getting all the chips in not a bad idea. Do you see why?

Some fantastic reads on your part, but you seem unwilling to go with them."


There are a lot of hands other than qj with 1 spade has me beat. q9, q8, 96, and 86 with 1 spade also has me beat.
j9, or j8 with 1 spade has me beat beadly cuz he's got 17 outs. 98 with a spade has me crushed, he's got 20 outs.

kx, qx, or jx with 1 spade he has 11 or 12 outs. 45, 35, 34 with 1 spade, he has 12 outs.

Now do you see the predicament? If I make any bet and he raises, there's a very good chance that he is raising with a drawing but a favorite, and at worst, a slight dog if he has 11 or 12 outs. And do I want to risk my life on a hand that I don't even know if I'm a fave, and if I am, I'm no more than a ~62% fave? Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them.

I mean, come on, people, I still have a lot of chips. And one of the main concepts of tourney poker is that it's ok to let go of a +EV situation if by doing so, you can make an even more +EV decision later on.

But if I bet a little or check, it's pretty much like folding because every card on the turn is a scare card and he'll bet no matter what.

Look, for what it's worth, I pushed, he thought for a long time and called with kj and the king was the spade. So he had 11 outs, got no help, and I won the tourney. $6,600, nice payday.

And I felt like I made the right move until I told 2 friends about it, and they told me that pushing was a horrible play. And these are two very well respected 2+2ers. So that's why I'm posting the hand.

So criticize my push play but don't pretend like there is a cut and dry decision here. It comes down to the fact that I just want to take the pot down right there, but only a push can do it, which is unfortunate because the stack sizes are still pretty big compared to the pot and the blinds. That's why it's a tough little situation.

[Melchiades]

[ QUOTE ]
But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2.

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them.

[/ QUOTE ]
You change your story all the time. Or do you mean he wont call the push with hands you have crushed. That is just all the more reason to bet 1500 or less, which is pretty much what every poster here has suggested. You want action from all of his hands, not only the ones who calls a push.

[tigerite]

Double Down - stop arguing - you're on your own here. Bet and call a push. Poker is meant to be simple, you're making it complicated.

[Double Down]

" Quote:
But if I bet 1500 or less, I know he'll push with any 2.


Quote:
Oh, and of the hands that I have crushed, he won't call with many of them."


"You change your story all the time."

Fair enough, thank you for calling me on my inconsistency. So I would say this: That if I bet 700 or less, he'll raise with any 2 cards bigger than a 7. And amongst all of those possible combinations are all sorts of hands that are either slight dogs or slight favorites to my hand, and the only ones I dominate pretty much are qj,q9,and q8 with no spades.

If I bet 1000-1500, he won't raise with those hands that I have crushed, but he will raise with any 2 overs with a spade or straight draw that make him slight dog-decent fave.

Everyone is criticizing my thinking but people still haven't said what they'd do here. Remember, I pushed, but I'm only posting this hand because 2 well respected 2+2ers told me that pushing was horrible.


So instead of telling me what's wrong with each option, I want to hear from you guys, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

[unfrgvn]

[ QUOTE ]
Everyone is criticizing my thinking but people still haven't said what they'd do here. Remember, I pushed, but I'm only posting this hand because 2 well respected 2+2ers told me that pushing was horrible.


So instead of telling me what's wrong with each option, I want to hear from you guys, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE??

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me try. First of all, I seldom have that good of a read, so if I made a 3/4 pot sized bet and he came over the top, I would probably have to lay it down with only middle pair. But I play weak tight. I'm working on it.

What I think everyone is trying to tell you is, by pushing you narrow his range to the legimate hands he has that are favorites over yours. By inducing him to bluff by betting less than 1500, now you are getting all the chips in with a good chance to be a favorite. Theory of poker, if someone bluffs too much you should induce him to bluff even more.

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I mean, come on, people, I still have a lot of chips. And one of the main concepts of tourney poker is that it's ok to let go of a +EV situation if by doing so, you can make an even more +EV decision later on.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you do the following:

1) replace "main concepts" with "most abused and misunderstood concepts"
2) remove yourself from the box enough to realize that you are abusing and misunderstanding the concept that you (while using a really, really arrogant tone) inform us all of

you will:

3) be better off in the long run

c

[Double Down]

I apologize for my arrogant tone. I meant no disprespect.

citanul, what would be your play here?

[citanul]

[ QUOTE ]
I apologize for my arrogant tone. I meant no disprespect.

citanul, what would be your play here?

[/ QUOTE ]

1) no worries. people just need to be careful of what they write as this is an internet message board and inflection/sarcasm/whatever are reduced to whatever it is we read on the screen

2) i would need to actually know what your read is to tell you what my play is. if he's going to call preflop with 95% of all hands, bet all hands that hit the flop in any way, and checkraise a small bet with air every time (air including hands with a spade in it) i would bet just about the most i think he would checkraise and call a push. throwing away a huge amount of dead chips because you "think you can find a better spot" than 70/30 later is absurd.