Folding overcards? hand question

Skuzzy · #1 06-20-2005, 07:27 AM

Do you fold this?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button Calls 2 folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (11.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero ???

...and this?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, Hero raises, 3 folds, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG checks, MP2 bets, Hero ???

I fold the first and bet the second. Would just one player to follow in hand one make a difference? Or even having a lone club?

Fantam · #2 06-20-2005, 08:10 AM

I would tend to raise both of these (almost identical) hands.

If you discount the turn cards putting 3 to a flush on the board, you have 4 outs to pair your A or K, and 6 cards to give you the possible nut straight draw.

I think this gives you enough equity to call a bet in these reasonable sized pots. However, I would prefer to raise as this might fold out the 2 players behind me in the 1st hand, and might buy a free card to see the river in the 2nd hand if you dont improve on the turn.

By the way, it would help to have a good read on the other players. Because raising for a free card is most likely to work when your opponents are passive. Whereas against agressive players who might 3-bet, it would probably be better to just call.

TomBrooks · #3 06-20-2005, 08:19 AM

Hand 1: Fold.

Hand 2: Fold.

On both hands, your likely up against all kinds of bad things...Pairs, Two Pairs, Flush Draws, Straight Draws, and maybe a made Straight already. Get the hell out of Dodge.

I'd stay if I had at least a backdoor flush draw to the nuts. You don't on either of these hands and to make it worse, both flops are two suited in a suit you don't have.

McGahee · #4 06-20-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would tend to raise both of these (almost identical) hands.

If you discount the turn cards putting 3 to a flush on the board, you have 4 outs to pair your A or K, and 6 cards to give you the possible nut straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a 'glass half full' way of saying miracle runner-runner gutshot regarding the "nut straight draw". You're also vulnerable to redraws if you spike your pair, and/or reverse domination.

[ QUOTE ]
I think this gives you enough equity to call a bet in these reasonable sized pots. However, I would prefer to raise as this might fold out the 2 players behind me in the 1st hand, and might buy a free card to see the river in the 2nd hand if you dont improve on the turn.
By the way, it would help to have a good read on the other players. Because raising for a free card is most likely to work when your opponents are passive. Whereas against agressive players who might 3-bet, it would probably be better to just call.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're also more likely to buy a free card and/or force out players behind you on a board that isn't so draw-heavy. Anyone holding a J isn't folding here. Raising this is no good.

Skuzzy · #5 06-20-2005, 08:23 AM

converter shows 3 players to flop on hand 1, there were 5 - my goof though. Too late to edit original.

silvershade · #6 06-20-2005, 08:23 AM

I think with overcards, if you arent sure what to do in a specific hand then just fold them.... I'm not saying that's always right but it probably wont lose much and is better than overplaying them.

Personally I'd fold both of these as they have a reasonable chance of ending up a second best hand even if they hit. The board could put others on open ended straight and flush draws, or even both at once.

therockofgibraltar · #7 06-20-2005, 08:30 AM

The flops are so scary that I am folding both of these. You have just overcard outs, no backdoor flush. I you catch an ace or king, your hand is still very vulnerable to redraws.

Skuzzy · #8 06-20-2005, 08:34 AM

EDIT: Sorry of this is obvious stuff, but my limit game is pants, I see players calling this down with AQ all the time and you get to wondering if folding is just weak tight.

Mercantides · #9 06-20-2005, 08:38 AM

I fold them both. There's enough people in the pots that someone is looking at a flush or straight.

Also, overcards tend to get me in trouble so I look for any excuse to fold them. I might try a raise in late position but with a flop like these drawers are going to call.

jrz1972 · #10 06-20-2005, 08:39 AM

If you don't fold each of these, I challenge you to come up with a board on which you *would* fold.