tricky -EV Situations i can't avoid

[jsnipes28]

***** Hand History for Game 2795608969 *****
0/0 Texas Hold'em Game Table (NL) - Thu Sep 29 13:34:56 EDT 2005
Table Table 36733 (6 max) (Real Money) -- Seat 6 is the button
Total number of players : 6
Seat 1: zoso7403 ( $35.50)
Seat 2: Patty23 ( $96.70)
Seat 3: CShippie ( $53.05)
Seat 4: cobraw3 ( $47)
Seat 5: gumball888 ( $97.90)
Seat 6: slips28 ( $51.75)
zoso7403 posts small blind (0.25)
Patty23 posts big blind (0.50)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to slips28 [ 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ]
CShippie folds.
cobraw3 raises (2) to 2
gumball888 calls (2)
slips28 calls (2)
zoso7403 folds.
Patty23 calls (1.50)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ]
Patty23 checks.
cobraw3 checks.
gumball888 checks.
slips28 bets (5)
Patty23 folds.
cobraw3 raises (15) to 15
gumball888 folds.
slips28 folds.

Villain in this hand has only been at the table for 10-15 hands so no reads. What plays the flop like this? Is this a missed AK from the pfr or does this mean QQ? I am very confused by this bet. The easy thing to do is to check, but if a harmless card like a 7 falls on the turn, what do i do if they check to me again. What if they check the turn, i bet, and they raise. What's the decision there?


and
Hero is BB with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] UTG folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB folds.
4 see a flop of J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
pot~$2
Hero bets $2, MP1 folds, CO calls $2, Button calls $2
Turn: 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
pot~$8
Hero bets $5, CO calls $5, Button calls $5
River: K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
$23
Hero Checks, CO bets $7, Button calls $7, Hero folds.
CO shows A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] for flush, ace high and wins $37.

I imagine that i am winning on the flop, but it seems like i am just sweetening the pot for whoever hits their draw. I would like to play a small pot with such a marginal hand, but by doing so i am giving both of them great odds to draw. Surely this cant be a hand that is check/folded?
Although throught 9K hands i am $-54.1 overall for JQs (29x) and -$10.1 for JQ (99x). I am considering just not playing this hand at all. It seems to always get me into the trickiest, -EV situations. All comments welcome and thoroughly appreciated.

[djoyce003]

In hand 1 - i've seen people pull this stunt with AA and KK a lot of the time. I'd probably check behind here because with that many people in the pot..someone likely flopped a queen....just play those small pockets in multiway pots as no set, no bet. If you were headsup with the villain a bet might be better, but not with that many people in the pot.

Hand 2 - with a multiway pot it's much harder to protect against the flush draws. I'd full pot the turn....that makes their odds at least a little worse. Once there is a bet and a call on that river, I think your fold is ok.

[wdeadwyler]

Goood post. Hand one, check behind, see what he does on the turn. If he checks again, bet. If he c/r make a read and play poker.

Hand 2. I agree with you hear. I try to price out other draws in then just price them in when I get multiple callers. I would prob pot this flop and then not put another cent in when I got two callers.

[jsnipes28]

thanks for the advice wyler. I like that idea on hand 2, pot the flop and then try and check it down. That makes more sense to me. By far, QJ is my biggest loser as far as 2 face cards are concerned. I dont seem to have a problem playing hands like AQ or KJ, KJ is actually one of my biggest winners thus far. But for whatever reason i just lose money with QJ. If people wouldn't mind, i would be really interested to hear what your long term results are with the hand. Thanks

[djoyce003]

over 50,000 hands i'm averaging just over 1 PTBB/hand with QJ and QJs

[Shibby]

My two worst broadway hands are QJ and K10. I'm folding K10 almost every time I see it. The suited hands fare a little better, but not by much. I don't have any stats to give you atm due to me being away from my primary computer, but I know that they're losing hands for me.

[Slappz]

I stopped playing QJo in almost all situations because it lost so much, QJs is playable, but i dont call too many raises with it.

[djoyce003]

i should qualify that all my stats are 6max.

If I was playing full ring I wouldn't be playing QJ unless I was on the button or near it and it had been folded to me.

[srm80]

what if the game was passive and loose, and allowed you to get more free cards. i would be limping in with a lot of connecting hands, especially QJ, even from EP

[djoyce003]

I wouldn't at a full passive/loose game with QJo, but I would with QJs. The problem with a lot of opponents is that you are trying to hit a straight or a flush with this hand.....top pair is likely to just get you in trouble and have you in kicker trouble...you are way more likely to win a small pot with QJ and lose a big one, especially from early position.

I'd be more inclined to play it in LATE position in a loose/passive game but still not so much in early.