AA in tight Limit HE

[charlesmartel]

Dear All,

New poster here at 2+2 so be kind [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think this could apply to concealed AA in Stud, but not sure. This is a theory question regarding AA in EP in a tight, limit HE game.

Usually, in this game, while the competitors are not especially tough, they are very tight. It is not uncommon to see a raise and 8 folds. The blinds are not particularly aggressive in their blind defense.

So, the question is, with AA and an EP raise you are quite likely to win the blinds right there. With that said, would it be better to limp and hope to draw others in, possibly limp raising, in this particular game.

Interested in your thoughts on this.

With Regards,

Charles

[FishAndChips]

Ah this is a good question, and one that gets debated quite a bit (the old "let them in" vs "make them pay" discussion.) There are definitely merits to both concepts, and I think individual situations dictate which play is best.

Since AA is the best hand preflop, many people like to raise to exploit its edge in equity by getting as much money in the pot while in the lead.

On the other hand, with limping you encourage others to call behind with worse hands. This also exploits your equity edge, but it does not make your opponents pay the maximum.

By raising you will definitely improve your odds of winning the pot, because as more people continue in the hand, your chances to win decreases. However with aces, you have an edge in equity no matter if you get one or ten callers, and thus you'll win more than your fair share either way. Limping encourages bigger pots that you win less often, but you win larger pots when you do. It's a trade off.

Either raising or limping will be positive EV for you. However, based on game conditions, (your image, the tightness of the blinds and other players etc.) one of them will have a greater EV than the other.

Most of the time I think you should raise with aces preflop, but at the particularly tight table, limping is a fine play. Plus, you gain the benefit of adding some deception to your game should you showdown the hand. This could be exploited later.

To make a long story short, you've got a hand that has definite positive EV, no matter what you do preflop (god forbid you fold). So your biggest worry is maximizing your EV here. Such a nice worry to have. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[johnc]

I lean towards raising because of the huge pf equity AA has. My approach is to look each street having unique equity opportunities - and exploit those opportunities as in the best way possible. If my equity at any particular street is not huge (such as with small pps) but could improve to be very big (hitting my set with my small pp) then it to my advantage to "limp" or invest a little with the potential to win alot. With AA, pf this is not the case. Pf equity is far too big to pass up a raise, IMO. If you get even luckier and hit your set (and 1 or 2 see the flop), in a tight game you'll be thankful that you able to extract those bets pf due to the fact that only 1 ace remains unseen making it unlikely your 1 or 2 opponents has it. They fold, or you try a slowplay to a bigger street, where they fold to your bet.
The only occassion where I see a benefit to limping is if your opponents are highly skilled and very observant - making the deception value of your rare limp +EV.

[bobbyi]

If the game were really as tight as you say, then you should limp. Your equity in playing out the hand is high and winning only 1.5 SB's is a "disaster". You are going to be raising with lots of (relatively) bad hands to try to steal the blinds, so your limp would look suspicious to a skilled player, but since these guys are "not especially tough", I wouldn't worry too much that a limp is going to give my hand away.

[charlesmartel]

[ QUOTE ]
Your equity in playing out the hand is high and winning only 1.5 SB's is a "disaster".

[/ QUOTE ]

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the way to. I am, right now, reading HE Poker, the small one (since I am not advanced [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]). In it Mr. Sklansky states, paraphrasing, "Your job is not to win pots, it is to win money." Raising seems to make it more likely I win the pot, but not necessarily more money.

Charles

[AnyTwoCanLose]

the question is what to do with crap.

If raising with AA is a -ev play, that tells me you are playing too tightly.

If they fold to your AA... they will fold to your 87s.

Limping might have some value as a deceptive play... but I don't think so. Too many people limp with AA thinking that they are tricky...

Good players won't assume you are raising with AA...

Again... if your raise tells the other players your hand then you aren't raising enough with lesser hands.

[FishAndChips]

[ QUOTE ]
the question is what to do with crap.

If raising with AA is a -ev play, that tells me you are playing too tightly.

[/ QUOTE ]


Either raising or limping with AA preflop can never be -EV -- only different degrees of +EV. And it's not necessarily that the hero is too tight, it's that the other players are.


[ QUOTE ]
Limping might have some value as a deceptive play... but I don't think so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Limping has great value at tight tables. Any hand that decides to limp behind you, is donating money to your preflop equity edge. You want your opponents to make mistakes against you when you have AA, and that mistake is putting money into the pot with an inferior hand.

At a very tight table, a raise is more likely to induce players to play correctly, causing them to fold their marginal hands. Whereas limping makes it more likely that one of them will mistakenly enter the pot behind you (and maybe, just maybe, try to raise you out of it [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] .)

[TXTiger]

I tend to limp in ep in a very tight game. Once you get to mp you should be open raising with everything you play, so you need to raise with AA too. There are a lot of factors here though. Have you raised a lot lately in ep since it can be good to raise with 87s and 66 in these games. If you have been raising a lot then I say go ahead and raise with AA. If somone decides they are going to put a stop to your thievery, then it's nice to have a hand to ram down their throat. And then of course continue thieving. If you have shown a weak hand like 87s after raising in ep, definitely go ahead and raise.

[eleventy]

Raise, I'd rather win a small pot than lose a big one. And then I'd find a better table.

[Guruman]

I think the answer depends mostly on your table image at the time. If you've been raising with decent hands and buying the blinds, then a raise is appropriate here. this is because you still want your opponents to play back at you, and you may get an isolation re-raise coming your way. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

If you've been the rock of the table then you have to limp, because an EP raise after an hour of pre-flop folds will catch about zero fish in it's net.

I also agree that as your position improves you should lean more towards raising anyway, since later position raises are not respected as much as early ones.