Kicking myself after this one

Flounder · #1 03-13-2004, 09:47 AM

Can I bet this river for value? When the third diamond hit, I went into check and call mode.

The table here was pretty bad, even by Party standards. They had been calling all the way to the river with pretty much anything.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (7 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB
Main Pot: 13.50 BB, between CO, SB, Hero, UTG and MP3. > Pot won by Hero (13.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Jc Jd (one pair, jacks).
Hero shows Ah 8d (one pair, aces).
UTG shows 4h Kd (one pair, kings).
MP3 shows 7c 7s (one pair, sevens).
CO shows Ts Qh (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB.

Henke · #2 03-13-2004, 10:06 AM

Generally speaking, be more inclined to bet the river against loose passive opponents. The more passive they are, the better, and the looser they are, the better. Of course, you will sometimes end up betting your opponents hands for them, but if you think you will get called in two places and there's no chance you'll get raised, then you have to bet if you're only having 33% chance of winning.

If your opponents are tighter on the river, waits until the river to raise and are generally more tricky, aggressive and bluffprone, then you should be more inclined to check because you'll sometimes get raised and then you would have to call.

In this particular hand, judging by the results, your opponents are quite passive and tend to call down with almost anything. So here you should probably have bet.

rayrns · #3 03-13-2004, 10:08 AM

I think that checking here is ok. Not only did the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] put the possible flush on board but a possible straight as well.

I would think someone would bet and then you can call behind. That would seem better than betting out and getting raised. If that happened would you call the raise, with just top pair?

ctv1116 · #4 03-13-2004, 10:22 AM

I question your raise on the flop. Hands like A9, AT, AJ will go into check-call mode after your raise, yet you will be way behind.

Henke · #5 03-13-2004, 10:37 AM

But hands like 77, JJ, K4 and QT will pay him off dearly when they call two cold on the flop.

chesspain · #6 03-13-2004, 11:07 AM

I think that this has to be a value bet on the river, especially with four other players who will likely call with any Ax, Kx, Qx, and pretty much any other pair. Players with worse hands will call you way more often than they will bet themselves on this river, costing you more money than the few times you will be raised by a flush.

Furthermore, if you think like cty and believe that you are behind to a better ace, then betting the turn doesn't make much sense, since there is no point in semi-bluffing against four loose-passive players when there is close to zero chance of you taking the pot right there.

Flounder · #7 03-13-2004, 11:26 AM

No, I thought the chance that I was behind to a better ace was small enough that I would make money by being aggressive. What I was mostly afraid of were the flush and straight draws. With that many people calling two cold on the flop, I thought at least one of them would have a good draw.

Like rayrns said, if I bet out and was raised, I would have to decide what to do. I probably would have made the crying call, but I wouldn't have liked it. So I decided to check and call. However, if the third diamond hadn't come in, I would have bet out.

chesspain · #8 03-13-2004, 11:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
What I was mostly afraid of were the flush and straight draws. With that many people calling two cold on the flop, I thought at least one of them would have a good draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

This wasn't your first time playing at Party .5/1, was it? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Seriously, with this many people seeing the river, your overly is too great to not bet, even if you would almost always call a raise.

bernie · #9 03-13-2004, 01:34 PM

Id bet this river. If raised, i would consider what the raiser may have raising into a field if he'd be bluffing with a worse hand. They usually have you beat. That player would likely stick out a little from previous hands if he was capable of bluffing here.

Youd be suprised at how much crap would call you here.

b