Live Hand: Pop it now or later?

Roadstar · #1 12-28-2005, 06:26 PM

4/8 Live at Riverrock Casino

Generally passive table with the exception of UTG and UTG+1
UTG is a little less passive than most, but his aggression is generally misplaced. I seen him check raise w/ mid pair, raise w/ KJo in the SB, etc.

UTG+1 has only been at the table for around 20 mins. Slightly loose (my estimate is the 30% vpip type). Post flop plays ok, but likes to call down though imo. Loves to make comments to make him look knowledgeable even when hes not in a hand (i.e. "so you must be on a flush draw" or "you were scared of the ace?", etc. etc.)

Hero is MP3 and dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 more call, I call in MP3, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

A little loose call preflop but nice pot size too given the LPPs.

Flop comes

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checks to UTG who bets, UTG+1 raises, folds to me, Hero???

I put UTG and UTG+1 on a high [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], probably A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for UTG+1

Do you 3 bet here? or wait until a safe turn to pop it? Is this a classic wait until the turn hand?

If [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falls on turn, do you call hoping to make a boat on the river?

Thanks!

ackid · #2 12-28-2005, 06:48 PM

Preflop looks ok given the loose table reads.

This looks like a wait til the turn hand to me.

Given the table stats if a spade falls your drawing to 4-outs. Looks like the pot should be big enough to see river.

mdrudeen · #3 12-28-2005, 07:19 PM

really 10 8 from middle position? am I missing something?

It seems to me if you wan't to play this against the two villians already in the pot then you should raise.

Or am I crazy?

milesdyson · #4 12-28-2005, 07:50 PM

there are 3 limpers already in.. this is not a loose limp.

W. Deranged · #5 12-28-2005, 08:12 PM

Pre-flop is fine here.

On the flop, you really should wait until the turn. Raise any non-[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J, 9, or Q turn.

Consider folding if any of those cards hit.

mdrudeen · #6 12-28-2005, 08:54 PM

ooops missed the third limp, disregard

TheHip41 · #7 12-28-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
4/8 Live at Riverrock Casino

Generally passive table with the exception of UTG and UTG+1
UTG is a little less passive than most, but his aggression is generally misplaced. I seen him check raise w/ mid pair, raise w/ KJo in the SB, etc.

UTG+1 has only been at the table for around 20 mins. Slightly loose (my estimate is the 30% vpip type). Post flop plays ok, but likes to call down though imo. Loves to make comments to make him look knowledgeable even when hes not in a hand (i.e. "so you must be on a flush draw" or "you were scared of the ace?", etc. etc.)

Hero is MP3 and dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 1 more call, I call in MP3, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.

A little loose call preflop but nice pot size too given the LPPs.

Flop comes

Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Checks to UTG who bets, UTG+1 raises, folds to me, Hero???

I put UTG and UTG+1 on a high [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], probably A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] for UTG+1

Do you 3 bet here? or wait until a safe turn to pop it? Is this a classic wait until the turn hand?

If [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] falls on turn, do you call hoping to make a boat on the river?

Thanks!

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a classic fold your bottom two pair on the flop for 2 bets hand. I really don't like the mindset of some ppl to 'put them on a hand I am ahead of'.

One is betting the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with a pair, the other is raising the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I'd limp preflop as well, but I'm not even sure you are ahead on the flop. I'd muck.

Roadstar · #8 12-29-2005, 12:34 PM

Really? Thats a little weak tight don't you think? As for the "mindset" its based on what is likely since it is very difficult to put either of them on a hand due to their loose limping ranges.

On the flop we're behind a made flush (over 100:1), made straight J9 (another long shot), QQ, TT, 88 and QT and Q8. QQ we would likely have seen a raise preflop, TT or 88 only 1 combo each since I have the T and 8. QT and Q8 are somewhat reasonable possibilities (again I already have a T and 8). Anything else I'm ahead of. I'm ahead more often than not. With a straight and flush draw, its about 50/50. So what are you putting them on here? What are we fearing?

Don't forget we're getting something like 11:2 here.

Results soon.

[ QUOTE ]

This is a classic fold your bottom two pair on the flop for 2 bets hand. I really don't like the mindset of some ppl to 'put them on a hand I am ahead of'.

One is betting the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with a pair, the other is raising the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I'd limp preflop as well, but I'm not even sure you are ahead on the flop. I'd muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

JojoDiego · #9 12-29-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Really? Thats a little weak tight don't you think? As for the "mindset" its based on what is likely since it is very difficult to put either of them on a hand due to their loose limping ranges.

On the flop we're behind a made flush (over 100:1), made straight J9 (another long shot), QQ, TT, 88 and QT and Q8. QQ we would likely have seen a raise preflop, TT or 88 only 1 combo each since I have the T and 8. QT and Q8 are somewhat reasonable possibilities (again I already have a T and 8). Anything else I'm ahead of. I'm ahead more often than not. With a straight and flush draw, its about 50/50. So what are you putting them on here? What are we fearing?

Don't forget we're getting something like 11:2 here.

Results soon.

[ QUOTE ]

This is a classic fold your bottom two pair on the flop for 2 bets hand. I really don't like the mindset of some ppl to 'put them on a hand I am ahead of'.

One is betting the K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with a pair, the other is raising the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I'd limp preflop as well, but I'm not even sure you are ahead on the flop. I'd muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you can fold here with that pot size, the strong chance you are ahead, and your 4 outs to a monster. So, do you call or 3-bet?

If you're ahead, certainly many turn cards can hurt you. But if you 3-bet, you very well may knock out folks drawing to a bigger 2 pair, sets, gutshots or backdoors. I'm therefore leaning toward protecting our hand here with the 3-bet. And if those weak draws call incorrectly, you've gained much value, correct?

A big reason to wait for the turn is if a flop bet won't protect your hand, right? It appears a reraise here will protect your hand.

TakeMeToTheRiver · #10 12-29-2005, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a classic fold your bottom two pair on the flop for 2 bets hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that a classic? Not one that I have heard -- but this might be a good situation to step back from the hand.

Think about how many scare cards are there on the turn? I think any spade, A, K, Q, J, or 9 is very scary. About half the deck scares us -- and we may already be behind.

Of course there are redraws (unless a villain gets his straight flush).

That being said, I call or raise -- depending on how I feel the rest of the pool will respond -- because I envision a large number of chips eventually joining my stacks.