$5/$10 Q9o on the button

Warik · #1 09-04-2005, 01:18 PM

Reads:

MP is 87.5 / 12.5 / 1.11 after only 8 hands
UTG is fairly solid at 26.79 / 17.9 / 1.82 after 56
BB is 75 / 0 / 1.14 after 8 hands.

So clearly I don't know much about anybody except UTG.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB raises, UTG calls, MP calls, Hero calls.

I call with position after everybody and their mother limps. Too lose?

Flop: (8.40 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP raises, Hero calls, BB 3-bets, UTG calls, MP caps, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

There's just over 11 SB in the pot when it gets to me, and I'm getting just over 5.5:1 on a just under 5:1 draw - so I call. 2nd time it comes around I still have odds and the pot is gargantuan, so I call again.

Turn: (12.20 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Here's where I'm not sure. I call in hopes of BB and UTG overcalling, which they do. I thought I could get more on the turn & river by UTG and BB overcalling in this huge pot instead of MP slowing down and just calling a river bet after I raise on the turn.

River: (16.20 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

Doh... overcall plan worked on the turn but not the river. Was this the time to put in a raise?

Final Pot: 18.20 BB

Thanks.

spamuell · #2 09-04-2005, 01:30 PM

Fold pre-flop. You're dominated by quite a few limping hands.

You MUST raise the turn. Look at all that flop action, do you really think they're going anywhere? Also, you need to give someone a chance to 3-bet so you can cap.

You didn't make nearly as much money with this hand as you should have.

surfdoc · #3 09-04-2005, 01:31 PM

Fold preflop. Raise turn, raise river.

krishanleong · #4 09-04-2005, 03:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop. Raise turn, raise river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perfect.

Krishan

Trix · #5 09-04-2005, 01:39 PM

I fold preflop, I have limped this before, but only when it´s pretty much perfect. It isn´t when solid limps UTG.

I´d probably 3bet the flop for value/free card/deception.

The turn is a very easy raise, considering all the action on the flop, the potsize and the board. You aren´t really looking to have people coming along for one bet here.

Edit: Wondering how long it will be before one of the ~30/20 players tells this is an easy limp..

spydog · #6 09-04-2005, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I´d probably 3bet the flop for value/free card/deception.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me, too.

Plus, the turn raise is pretty easy.

Michael Davis · #7 09-04-2005, 01:47 PM

Preflop is fine but not if postflop is butchered. Whatever you do on the flop is fine as long as you don't fold, the case can be made for calling or threebetting depending on the likely reactions of your opponents. That's a limper's flop, though, and your overcard is probably worth 1/2 an out or less, so there's not much value in pushing people out, but there is value in potentially getting to the river for free.

Your numbers on how often you hit this draw are off by quite a bit. Under no circumstances are you folding this hand before the river on that board, aside from some utterly disgusting turn situation where you have to call three cold or something.

The turn is an absolute disaster. You do not want overcalls. Look at the action on the flop. These people have hands. They have hands that have outs to beat you or chop you. Three queens give an ace a higher straight, and hands containing an ace are exactly those that you have a chance of pushing out with a turn raise. The pot is sufficiently large that letting someone draw to a threeouter is a mistake (though it's close and they depend on implied odds for this). Any 9 or an ace on the river could chop the pot for someone else, and somebody with a queen is going to call two cold on the turn. Plus there are any number of two pair/ pair + straight draw possibilities out there that might call. Plus, two pair hands are now correct to call a single bet. You do not want overcalls here, period, and even if you did, it would still be better to raise, because often they will have hands that can or will call two cold. Again, you do not want overcalls.

You should be thinking about going for overcalls when you have 65 and the board is 874 and there a bunch of likely big cards after you. When you have three big cards and a fourth on the fringe of the playing zone, going for calls when you get action no matter how many bets go in is a big no-no.

-Michael

Warik · #8 09-04-2005, 01:50 PM

Thanks everyone for your comments, especially you Michael for your detailed response.

surfdoc · #9 09-04-2005, 02:02 PM

great post as usual michael, but come now sir we know your 8 tabling ass is folding preflop without giving this a second thought.

Also not mentioned yet in this thread yet is the turn card putting up a flush draw. yet another reason to jam the turn.

Michael Davis · #10 09-04-2005, 02:06 PM

"great post as usual michael, but come now sir we know your 8 tabling ass is folding preflop without giving this a second thought."

Not true. I play this hand after any number of limpers on the button, and with just one limper I'd raise it. I actually did an exhaustive investigation of my stats with Q9o before I posted this, just to make sure. Of course, this particular situation doesn't happen much.

Honestly, I don't play any tighter while multitabling than I do when I'm playing one. Gonna have to tighten up because of the rake increase, but that's a different issue.

-Michael